a question for the men here

[Mitchy1nge]

what makes you think you have anything of real value to bring to discussions about women's experiences and expectations?

obviously some men can make interesting contributions (although those sorts of men don't often announce themselves here) to some discussions but generally, on the whole, everything everywhere else is already pretty saturated in Male Voice so was just wondering where you got the idea from

There's a fair old argument to be had about how much exactly men are 'let down' by society. To live in a fairly constant state of disregarding the 'other' 50% of the human race must be a load to carry around, and make for discontentedness and unhappiness. Made more problematic when that unhappiness is exercised on that other 50%.

After searching DD, he's written four posts today, and I'm assuming like the rest of the male posters like me, have also never heard of him, I don't know how we're supposed to know his history and to challenge him.

And I still don't believe it would go down well with everyone if male posters challenged other posters.

Especially when we're told we need to listen more on here and are reminded about how it would be great to have a hide poster button.

Too many mixed messages, that's women for you, and we're only simple men.
(As I know feminists have a fantastic sense of humour, that'll be noted as a joke)

I'll have a

That so many men on are happy to argue with the feminists, claim to be feminists, yet won't speak out against male misogynistic trolls on here, is very disappointing.

"men are bad, women are mad"

This is a sad view of the world indeed; it's no wonder you are so angry.

Do you not think that by making society more equal, we could reduce crime and mental illness?

More men are in prison because more of them commit crimes which are serious enough to merit a prison sentence.

Of the women who are in prison, more of them are there for crimes which men don't get custodial sentences for, because women get higher sentences than men for similar crimes.

What are you suggesting? That we start sending women to prison for things which men get cautioned for, just to even the figures up?

Is that equality?

It's late, why am I bothering?

No, equality is not an eye for an eye, that is revenge.

Equality is looking in to the reasons why men commit such violent crimes (mostly against other men) and why women also commit crimes, and then try to find solutions to these problems which are fair to all the parties involved.

Fastidia you may as well talk to mini's wine-soaked cat.

Gigabot9k , yes I agree many men have a bad start in life, perhaps as a result of DV (usually pp by men) economic hardship, inequality of opportunity (manmade again) poor role models etc,,,,, but do you have any idea how many young women end up in psych after committing crimes? and the background to this is DV, poverty, childhood abuse, prostitution and lack of educational opportunities.... I agree that some men have it hard but if you really unpick the issue you discover that the problems stem from the patriarchal relations within family and society.

Actually giga re your comment:
"More men are in prison than women, and the old doctrine is that "boys will be boys", and as an egalitarian I don't believe that at all. I believe men are let down by our society just as much as women are let down, and it is the old stereotypes that cause this to happen."
Women get put in prison for far lesser crimes than men, they are in fact MORE likely to be remanded in custody, BECAUSE of the old doctrine of boys will be boys.

Sunshinefreedom, put the cat down, it's not worth it (or is it just some weird suicide pact?)

Why do you think so many men commit such violent crimes Gigabot?

And why do you think so many of them are so violent but don't end up in prison? Like the majority of rapists who are never even reported let alone jailed, and the men who regularly beat up their wives and girlfriends?

Most violence doesn't end in prison. So it's male violence in general that needs to be looked at and examined, not just the bits that land them in jail.

So many empty insults. They don't do any help at all and only show that you lack any form of counter argument.

Ah! I see! This is one of those special thread where everybody has to agree with the in crowd is it? And if they don't the in crowd go "La la la la!" and ignore all dissenting voices as "unbelievers!"

Earlier on somebody of a particular sex said something obviously objectionable and the opposite sex complained that the others of that sex did not object loud enough.

Later on somebody of a particular sex said something obviously objectionable and the opposite sex instead of complaining, did nothing.

Hully called Pan a cowardly pussywhipped wanker. How many people complained? How many people said personal abuse is not allowed? None.

Sabrina said:"That so many men on are happy to argue with the feminists, claim to be feminists, yet won't speak out against male misogynistic trolls on here, is very disappointing." You won't speak out on people being abused on Mumsnet either.

"The creatures outside looked from pig to man, and from man to pig, and from pig to man again; but already it was impossible to say which was which.?

Goodbye all.

x posted with others making the same point - I am not fast enough for this mumsnetting malarky.

Gigabot, Mini was making an allusion to a well know piece of feminist historiography and critique. You don't want to be taking it literally.

Arf Getorf.

I suspect as much

giga what do you mean a lack of counter argument - I have not insulted you and I have referenced a specific point that you made.

If you would like more information regarding women and prison I suggest you read the Angiolini report.

Goodbye Tiggy.

I think "boys will be boys" might be connected with the level of violence men go in for.

Giga and I may have common ground.

I know, we are all stalinist misandrist twats.

A lot of men don't end up in prisons because our prisons are over stretched, and we can't hold them all; we have to let them out eventually or find other ways of dealing with them. Also, prison is not always the best solution.

I'm not trying to have a pissing contest of who has it hardest, because that would be impossible to decide.

I'm against all forms of unfairness, be it against men or women.

Some men are criminals and abusers, but so are some women. It is a problem which needs to be resolved, not a competition.

Some posters have said I'm "full of shit", which is an insult which does nothing to further debate.

Not everyone has reduced themselves to insults though.