Been out. It's not pretty out there. My feminist views are challenged tonight.

[dummad]

Hello, just a quickie coz I'm a bit drunk.

I've been out tonight in a bar in town - a trendy bar. Getting to the point, I'm disappointed ladies. I'm disappointed in what I've seen. Why do young women stand around dressed up like a dog's dinners looking bored out of their minds out of choice? I'm trying very hard not to think it, but I'm on the slippery slope of thinking women don't help themselves be taken seriously when they portray themselves the way they do. I know it's about choice and whatnot, but why CHOOSE to look like little fuck toys if you don't have to? Sorry. I just find it difficult to fly the feminist flag after what I've seen tonight. It's like young women don't give a flying toss about being empowered. They all look the same - tarty, vacuous and vacant. ALL of them. Hundreds of them. There wasn't one young lady in the place tonight without a horrendously short skirt on and killer heals. One group got out of the taxi and had garters tattood around her upper thigh. The men in the queue outside hardly batted an eyelid but one was there making sort of animal gestures to them like he was in a zoo. Maybe that's the sort of reaction these girls wanted.

In the bar guys couldn't even be bothered to approach the women by the looks of it. For two hours we were in there and I didn't see any notable, interaction between the sexes. Of course you'll never get a guy complaining about the way the girls look - they just lap it all up from a distance - it's all just laid out for them and saves the entry fee into the local lap dancing club I guess. They don't give a shit. Sluttier the better in their view. Why the hell don't women today backlash against it? I'd understand if it were a few of them like that but it was all of them. I'm sure they're intelligent, well bought up girls as well. So can't blame it on ignorance/ upbringing or whatever. They are a fucking disgrace.

You know what - I want you to put me right. I want you to tell me I'm wrong and there is hope and that women are aspiring for empowerment and campaign that they are respected as equals. It's up to them isn't it? They are the next generation after all. Don't they honestly care about their place in society? Don't they want to improve things like misrepresentation in the media and violence against women and lower wages etc? Don't they want to be taken seriously? Is this what has happened when women are contented? Is this what we choose to be by default? If so, it's no wonder men look down on us.

"Dressing like a prostitute - and some of them DID look like prostitutes"

Have you actually seen any prostitutes? I ask because my friend lives in a red light area. The women who look for 'customers' outside her house do not dress in club wear. In fact, every single one I've seen looks quite dowdy and impoverished.

Also, why is it a problem for women (or men) to go out with a group of friends and not interact with the other sex? When I was a young, trendy thing I can remember finding it seriously annoying to go out with my friends only have random men approach us under the assumption we were really there to pull. Maybe younger men understand that sometimes women like to socialise with other women and don't feel they need to try to impose themselves?

Oh and I had a sort of pudding, of some pieces of crystallised ginger, and a coffee. This thread is making me want to be a better person and eat proper meals.

thank you saskia!

i really dont believe that those saying "they were dressed like prostitutes" have ever met any prostitutes in RL. more likely they watched pretty woman a few too many times.

the prostituted i have met were wearing jeans and trainers. no make-up. hair pulled back in pony tails. t-shirts or long sleeved tops and coats. a very few wore skirts and very low heels. there was certainly no tan or hairspray or fake nails/lashes. no flashy jewellery or nice handbags. and defnitely no six inch heels.

It does seem to be the fashion of the day and most girls or women I see out seem to dress like that for the weekend, maybe they dress differently for a quiter night out during the week or so. it's a personal thing, I just don't like the look or think it's attractive so I'm biased against it as it makes them all look the same and many naturally attractive girls look worse for it (IMO of course) and I realise this makes me sound like a old fogey. it might not be what prostitutes wear but it is like the Katie Price, TOWIE glamour girl look. TBH, if I was a guy I would think what the hell, I would wonder why people want to wear restrictive, uncomfortable clothes and shoes, spend so much time on makeup which really just looks garish and dirty. In this I can't blame guys thinking women have strange priorities and they might not take someone who appears to be emmulaing Katie Price as seriously. Find it hard tounserstand myself but then I'm a bit of a slob who generally goes for more comfortable, practical clothes and shoes and feels a bit grubby with a lot of make up on.

i'm not sure what your point is bella? you wore a nice dress and got compliments so that means all the girls who dont dress like you are looking for teh wrong type of man?

Bella seems to be saying that if you want to meet a pilot or a dentist (oooooh) you should wear classy designer dresses like wot she does. Or maybe a couple of lads spun her line that she was the best dressed girl there (original) and she is still reeling from the praise.

OP, you sound like Mary Whitehouse. Why shouldn't young women dress up and go out and have fun, if they want? It may not be your idea of a good time, but no one is forcing you to participate.

am I still drunk from last night or is this thread hilarious?

I'm not getting the point either. Bella wore a nice dress, and a man told her she looked good in it. All that means is that you comply with what that particular man finds attractive. His opinions have no bearing on how other women choose to dress.

if you want to meet a pilot

Didn't do Deirdre Barlow much good.

bet he wasn't even a pilot.

if those guys had been cleaners would their opinion on your dress have been worth less to you bella?

Bella - why do you care what men (or women) think about your clothes? Why does it matter?

"There are the ones you marry and the ones you shag.....I distinctly recall a guy saying. " just before you walked away from him, right bella? because what he really meant was "there's one's you give the dick to and one's you give the washing to"

why on earth would you give any value to the opinion of an asshole like that?

This thread is like the ur antifeminist thread. Quick, let us check with any random man that our attire is suitably appealing to them. Let us reassure ourselves that the madonna/whore divide is alive and well because, you know, it is only men's opinion of our looks that really has any value (especially if they are a pilot)

Bella, not sure how I can convey this to you. I simply have no interest in "what men want". If they want to divide women into shag/marry, that's up to them really. I'm not going to change how I dress because they want to shove me into one of those boxes. If I end up single for the rest of my life, so be it.

I would rather be with a man who doesn't judge me to be honest. And yes, there are men out there who don't see women as "sluts" or "marriage material" but as, shocker, human beings.

By the way, I imagine most of us have spoken to men at some point. Leastways, I have, at least once or twice.

Yes ithaka we must dress elegantly so that men want to marry us and not just boink us.

Puke.

Begonia, I like your post. Only I don't see why you should be classed as an old fogey because of it.

I also like Freya's post about why women choose to dress in this way. It does give a good alternative view - and I agree women do have every right to express their sexuality as they wish. But would it not be better to exercise a little restraint and maintain a bit of modesty in public? That's the key - in public. In this case they are not at a private party, it's just mainstreaming and normalising an extreme. OK for those into it, but it's just a case of a small group giving the majority a bad name.

What you seem to support is a society that is preoccupied with expressing sexuality instead of one that is geard up to expressing thoughts, opinions or ideas. It seems a bit backward.

I do just want to say at this point I'm greatful for the debate. I'm not digging my heels in and I'm going to ponder on the constructive arguments that have been made. Although I don't think I'll ever agree how girls selling out with too much make up and too few clothes will achieve anything for feminism or the general perception of women.

We must be available for chores, but not look too available for sex.

Is it 1840?

Women know your place. Your worth is in your appeal to men. Without a man you are nothing, I tell you, nothing.

dummad I think we are able to convey both sexuality AND thoughts and opinions, aren't we?

Don't get me wrong, I think women are under a LOT of pressure to look good and I don't think that's great. I just don't think we need to label them sluts.

but imagine if one somehow fell beyond, and the gentlemen neither wanted to do the sexuals with or marry one

is that how lesbians came to pass?