Been out. It's not pretty out there. My feminist views are challenged tonight.

[dummad]

Hello, just a quickie coz I'm a bit drunk.

I've been out tonight in a bar in town - a trendy bar. Getting to the point, I'm disappointed ladies. I'm disappointed in what I've seen. Why do young women stand around dressed up like a dog's dinners looking bored out of their minds out of choice? I'm trying very hard not to think it, but I'm on the slippery slope of thinking women don't help themselves be taken seriously when they portray themselves the way they do. I know it's about choice and whatnot, but why CHOOSE to look like little fuck toys if you don't have to? Sorry. I just find it difficult to fly the feminist flag after what I've seen tonight. It's like young women don't give a flying toss about being empowered. They all look the same - tarty, vacuous and vacant. ALL of them. Hundreds of them. There wasn't one young lady in the place tonight without a horrendously short skirt on and killer heals. One group got out of the taxi and had garters tattood around her upper thigh. The men in the queue outside hardly batted an eyelid but one was there making sort of animal gestures to them like he was in a zoo. Maybe that's the sort of reaction these girls wanted.

In the bar guys couldn't even be bothered to approach the women by the looks of it. For two hours we were in there and I didn't see any notable, interaction between the sexes. Of course you'll never get a guy complaining about the way the girls look - they just lap it all up from a distance - it's all just laid out for them and saves the entry fee into the local lap dancing club I guess. They don't give a shit. Sluttier the better in their view. Why the hell don't women today backlash against it? I'd understand if it were a few of them like that but it was all of them. I'm sure they're intelligent, well bought up girls as well. So can't blame it on ignorance/ upbringing or whatever. They are a fucking disgrace.

You know what - I want you to put me right. I want you to tell me I'm wrong and there is hope and that women are aspiring for empowerment and campaign that they are respected as equals. It's up to them isn't it? They are the next generation after all. Don't they honestly care about their place in society? Don't they want to improve things like misrepresentation in the media and violence against women and lower wages etc? Don't they want to be taken seriously? Is this what has happened when women are contented? Is this what we choose to be by default? If so, it's no wonder men look down on us.

Mitchy - sausage butties and salad. Was very nice.

"They look like prostitutes, with those rediculously high heel shoes and everything hanging out."

do you know many prostitutes?

"I was always told you either have boobs or legs on display, never both."

who told you this and why did you accept someone else's rules for how you should dress?

"I recall a male friend once describing a tartily dressed female friend of mine, having just briefly introduced them, as "looks like she's gagging for it" (female friend out of earshot at this point). Personally, not a nice way to be described. "

i'm in shock that you decided that your female friend was responsible for what you disgusting male friend (why is he still a friend??) said about her? what a horrible person to give any of your time or respect to.

"but why CHOOSE to look like little fuck toys if you don't have to?"

I thought feminism was about choice? If you were a true feminist you would respect their decision to dress like "little fuck toys"?

Feminism isn't all about choice, but neither is it about making assumptions about women based on what they wear.

It sounds like you went to a foul, provincial, meat-market nightclub. That is how women dress in those places. Had you gone to a library, a gym, the Royal Enclosure at Ascot or a dry ski slop, you would see women dressed appropriately for those environments.

Yes, young women dress like absolute slags when going clubbing, but it's not a new thing, nor is it reflective of women in general or even of young women in general.

oohlaalaa your male friend sounds lovely.

FreyaSnow, you might be right, I don't know many women who are doing the whole Essex look. I used to wear short skirts albeit with dms. I just think that somehow young women seem to have fewer choices now not more. And I agree men will judge what ever you wear. Too fat, too thin, too blonde, too dark, too tall, too short, too flat chested, too bumpy, prude or whore. Can't win.

the only reason you couldn't win mini was if your prize is the attention of a judgemental man.

you can win. you win by not dressing to 'win' the approval of another person but by dressing in a way YOU feel comfortable. you win be deciding that only your own approval is valid and that any person who would judge as being less of a human for having less fabric on your body isn't the prize you want.

but, yes, if you are dressing for the approval of men, you are right you wont win.

"They look like prostitutes, with those rediculously high heel shoes and everything hanging out."

The word "stereotyping" springs to mind.

Well, I don't find the look you describe particularly compelling, OP, but I don't think judging the women you met on the basis of their dress choices is particularly female friendly response. When confronted by similar scenes I'm moved to think that it's not them failing feminism so much as feminism not being a completed project. If lots of smart women still find confidence in, and identity with, signalling (hetro)sexual availability then the notion that women are liberated is a bit strange. I always find the 'choice' argument a bit of a red herring because it occludes from view the way that choices don't happen in a vacuum; choices about dress are being made in the context of what we assume are important aspects of social relationships. And to the extent we haven't 'chosen' dominant attitudes to those relationships, we aren't fully 'choosing' from an objective or neutral position - rather we are choosing either to participate or not. We haven't chosen whether or not those particular kinds of social relationships are up for negotiation in that way.

Thank you for trying to sabotage the thread by the way. I'm no troll and I've been a MNer for eight years. I just keep forgetting my login.

Back to the point. This was never intended to be a thread about female style. Look, I own a pair of six inch gold heels which I will wear with a dress for my 39th birthday. I am not averse to glamming up. But the difference is I will be going out with the intention of looking my male (and female) contemporaries in the eye and conversing with them all evening as an equal. That's what I call socialising. That's why we go out isn't it?

If last night i could see evidence of girls and boys having a jolly old time getting on relaxing, I wouldn't care if they were wearing sod all. But they weren't. I was taken back by the lack of intergration, and the barriers that were up between the genders. I don't want people to have to feel like they need to cover up. It's not flesh that is the problem. And i get the fact girls are just copying a look, but leather knickers and lace corsets in January, in a bar in a small town? Come on!

I think some of you need about your definitions of sexy and beautiful.

And I never shift the blame to the victim EVER. I am not talking in context of assault. The amount if arguments I've had opposing the views that Jinmy Saville's victims are all lying, or (earlier today in fact) that Justin Lee Colin's girlfriend must have asked for him to assault her coz she's wierd (from a female) is worryingly high. Please don't insult me with that.

But if we are to drive a cultural shift this is not the way to do it. If we want change then get real. This is the real world. We're not in a strong enough position to have it both ways yet. If you don't want change then carry on.

I'm alright. I'm where I want to be in life and noone has ever stood in my way. It's no skin off my nose if teenagers dig graves for themselves. I'm just trying to highlight a stark reality. It's their individual choice but one that rubs off on everyone else.

And I don't read the DM.

Er, who's trying to sabotage the thread? We're discussing it. Most of us are just aghast that you're being so horrible about women.

You ARE victim blaming. You are saying that if women get dressed up like that and then they're not respect it's THEIR FAULT.

No. It is the fault of the sort of wanky man who can't see that a glamourously dressed women is worthy of respect, like oohlala's friend up there.

I'm not changing how I dress in order to get respect for men. How is THAT feminism?

The man doesn't owe you anything I'm afraid. it's not his problem is it? He can walk away from you and carry on with his life. You calling men wanky is as bad as them calling women slutty. It's double standards on your part. Many posters here sound like men haters to me.

I don't always want to converse with men. I am quite happy to sometimes just socialise with women. I don't feel that I am being treated less equally because of it.

It's not a double standard. The man is being judged for making nasty remarks about a person; the woman is being judged based on what she is wearing. It isn't very nice to call people wanky or slutty, but one of those people being judged is being unpleasant while the other is not.

'Many posters here sound like men haters to me'

You jumped the shark

The throng of the argument against the op seems to be women should be able to dress exactly how they want and not expect any judgement or particular reaction from that. No matter how extreme. Dressing like a prostitute - and some of them DID look like prostitutes - and not expecting men to react is like a comedian telling a joke and getting upset when someone laughs. It's common sense isn't it?

How is me calling a wanker a wanker double standards? Judging someone for their insulting behaviour is not like judging someone for their clothes.

They didn't look like prostitutes. Prostitutes don't dress like that.

Men don't owe me shit, but they're not getting any respect/attention/conversation/2nd thought from me unless they respect me. If someone judges me for my clothes/whatever, they are dead to me.

" I own a pair of six inch gold heels which I will wear with a dress for my 39th birthday. I am not averse to glamming up. But the difference is I will be going out with the intention of looking my male (and female) contemporaries in the eye and conversing with them all evening as an equal. "

and will you be doing that with strangers or just the people you know? because it's entirely possible that the people you saw last night, went out to socialise with their friends and that what you saw was exactly that. them socialising with their friends. there is no rule that people must go out and talk with strangers. i certainly dont approach strangers and strike up a conversation to let them know my level of intelligience or where i stand on the death penalty or animal cruelty.

Your OP said that the men did not react. You said there was barely any notable reaction from them. The person judging these women is you, and you can change that.

I am sure there are extremes of dress that would get a reaction because people are not used to it, but people generally are used to the kind of clothes you describe, in certain bars and clubs in certain towns.

you absoloutely do not get it OP. and yes your language is quite woman hating and definitely anti-feminist. the women you saw aren't the problem. your attitude is the problem. you are blaming these women for you judging them.

Freya, I have to say that is a very good point well made. You are right by your last post. The woman isn't doing anything wrong and the man is. But the argument isn't really about that. I'n not saying women are asking for abuse. I'm saying it could be responsible for an underlying negative attitude towards a woman's role in life. That they are promoting a regressive image that undermines the cause of being taken seriously.

But I also support the notion they are young people who are partying and they should be free on a Saturday night to do what they want.

I'm just surprised that, when it comes to the crunch, this IS what women want. ANC wonder WHat. Where is the fun in it?

Sorry am on phone. I mean wonder why? Where is the fun in it?

Dummad, partying dressed like that isn't what all women want, but it is what some women want. Some women like it because of fashion; some women like it because it can be sexual. Most women are sexual. Sexuality is fun. Some women express sexuality through their clothes; some women don't and express it through other ways or don't express it at all. Some women express sexuality through clothes that are currently considered stereotypically 'sexy' by some; some women express sexuality through masculine attire; some women express sexuality through clothes that are feminine but not conventionally 'sexy.'

I don't take women less seriously based on the way they express their sexuality. I expect most adults to have a sexuality, because that's part of being an adult for most people.

I had meatballs for lunch. I wanted salmon but I was sharing with DS2 and he wanted meatballs, the testo-centric oppressor that he is (aged two-and-three-quarters )