Been out. It's not pretty out there. My feminist views are challenged tonight.

[dummad]

Hello, just a quickie coz I'm a bit drunk.

I've been out tonight in a bar in town - a trendy bar. Getting to the point, I'm disappointed ladies. I'm disappointed in what I've seen. Why do young women stand around dressed up like a dog's dinners looking bored out of their minds out of choice? I'm trying very hard not to think it, but I'm on the slippery slope of thinking women don't help themselves be taken seriously when they portray themselves the way they do. I know it's about choice and whatnot, but why CHOOSE to look like little fuck toys if you don't have to? Sorry. I just find it difficult to fly the feminist flag after what I've seen tonight. It's like young women don't give a flying toss about being empowered. They all look the same - tarty, vacuous and vacant. ALL of them. Hundreds of them. There wasn't one young lady in the place tonight without a horrendously short skirt on and killer heals. One group got out of the taxi and had garters tattood around her upper thigh. The men in the queue outside hardly batted an eyelid but one was there making sort of animal gestures to them like he was in a zoo. Maybe that's the sort of reaction these girls wanted.

In the bar guys couldn't even be bothered to approach the women by the looks of it. For two hours we were in there and I didn't see any notable, interaction between the sexes. Of course you'll never get a guy complaining about the way the girls look - they just lap it all up from a distance - it's all just laid out for them and saves the entry fee into the local lap dancing club I guess. They don't give a shit. Sluttier the better in their view. Why the hell don't women today backlash against it? I'd understand if it were a few of them like that but it was all of them. I'm sure they're intelligent, well bought up girls as well. So can't blame it on ignorance/ upbringing or whatever. They are a fucking disgrace.

You know what - I want you to put me right. I want you to tell me I'm wrong and there is hope and that women are aspiring for empowerment and campaign that they are respected as equals. It's up to them isn't it? They are the next generation after all. Don't they honestly care about their place in society? Don't they want to improve things like misrepresentation in the media and violence against women and lower wages etc? Don't they want to be taken seriously? Is this what has happened when women are contented? Is this what we choose to be by default? If so, it's no wonder men look down on us.

But most of the women who wear revealing clothes in bars and clubs at the weekend don't wear clothes like that to go round the supermarket, walk their dogs or go to work. Dressing in clothes that are 'sexy' according to current mainstream culture may be actively saying 'I want some NSA sex tonight.'
I see some posters fainting with horror at the idea of casual sex and implying that this is the terrible fate that awaits women who dress in revealing clothes - but they are missing the point that sometimes a woman wants casual sex. And this is a good thing (though not, obviously, something people should do when they really don't like the idea). The more young women engage in casual sex because they are horny, and too busy with their lives to want to 'settle down' with a man, the better: the insistence that women have to have 'love' to enjoy sex means too many women put up with men who are crap in bed and crap at being partners, because they believe that having 'let' the man have sex with them, they now have to maintain a relationship with him even though he's not up to much.

exactly lapsed

SBG i agree. all these posters hoiking judgy pants up in horror at a women dressed as if she is only after one thing might like to consider the idea that she is indeed after only one thing and there is nothing at all wrong with a woman going out with the intention of finding someone to have a ONS with.

I agree with SGB that women may be out looking for casual sex, and some will want male sexual attention and to pay sexual attention to men, and there is absolutely nothing wrong with that whatsoever. But I also think you usually can't tell that from somebody's clothing.

kim from experience i can tell you that men have as much variation in their dress style than women whether they are on the pull or not.

different men have different styles. some wil wear a shirt and trousers. some jeans and a t-shirt, some shorts and a muscle vest. depends again, what type of place you're in.

Whatever the men wear they are more likely to be practical, comfortable and warm and have spent less time and perhaps money on their appearance. Women seem to go to extremes to do the opposite. Isn't a surprise men might think some women come across as more frivolous, different priorities, not to be taken as serious and out to attract attention.

Agree the look of the moment tends to veer towards transvestite (ha, like that one), glamour model, porn star rather then prostitute.

And then after going to all that effort, many of them actually look awful and a lot worse than their more natural state.

what, you mean naked?

Hardehaar! took a few seconds to work that one out! Don't we all look worse naked!

I can understand why the OP caused controversy and caused a bit of a back lash, but I also think it's a shame not everyone is as prepared as I am to listen to an alternative view. I have since thought quite a lot about the consequences of criticising individual choice and felt pretty bad that I was acting all ?judgey?. But at least I was willing to have the debate in the first place. I guess it?s just turned out as a case of ?well I?m offended because you?re offended? and ?you?re a horrible person for judging?, even though that?s just judging me ? proving we?re all doing the same and no one can ever be right.
So, am I a feminist? Well, the word feminist means different things to different people. One the one hand a feminist may support closing lap dancing clubs on the basis they objectify women, on the other they may agree with the woman?s choice to work in the sex industry. Both have women?s issues at heart, both of them coming at the same subject from opposing angles. Both can class themselves as feminists.

I am not a misogynist. Only because I think the choices of some women are objectionable, it doesn?t mean I hate women in general. Being a feminist doesn?t mean you have to see eye to eye with every female and agree with what they do.
I still believe that by regularly wearing overly provocative clothing out in public as part of the status quo only serves to keep women shackled by the notion we are primarily sex objects. Where it has been suggested young women are just trying to be fashionable, it?s worth pointing out that by slavishly following fads and trends they are still playing into the hands of men as the fashion industry is male dominated. One way or another they are being dictated to by men.
I favour the view that women should take control of their own destinies independently of men and that if we haven?t yet got to where we want to then that is largely down to us. It?s a right wing view that is probably not one shared by the more liberal minded MNers who tend to believe glass ceilings and sexist politicians are the ones to blame for repressing us - both of which I think would be easy to smash and break if we all pulled together for a common cause. This liberal view also tends to support the sort of individualism that is evident from the ?don?t give a toss what anyone thinks about me' people contributing to this thread.
And should we care what men think? Absolutely. Because if we don?t care about what they think ? why on earth should they care about what we think? Men continue to own a privileged position in society and so it does matter how we come across to them so that we can eventually win their confidence and their vote!
Everyone should think about how they come across when they are out in public ? it?s just practicing basic self-respect. It?s just how civilisation has evolved. And I can assure you there won?t be many people ? male or female - that would see what I saw on Saturday night and think ?Oh, how refreshing to see young women acting all liberated. I reckon she?s on for a raise come Monday morning?. No way. Females seeking attention through blatant sexual exhibitionism in public is to me counterproductive behaviour to being taken seriously as women. Everyone has the right to pick what they wear. I have a right to my opinion. Simple as that.

it was an obvious one, i couldn't let it slide!

1. what is thsi bloody obsession you have with teh non existent connection between what a woman wears out with friends on a saturday night and whether she is any good at her job?

2)does anyone look at men out on a saturday night an dthink " ?Oh, how refreshing to see young men acting all liberated. I reckon he?s on for a raise come Monday morning?."? no they dont because the two situations are not connected and no-one would ever think to loof for taht connection where men are concerned so why make it an issue for women?

Dummad, of course you have a right to an opinion; nobody here has a gun to your head. I do think it is judgmental to make assumptions about people based on their clothes, but I'm not judging you or making assumptions about you based on your opinion. You could be running a dog foster service for victims of domestic violence for all I know.

You're also drawing massive assumptions about people's wider views based on statements they've made about clothes. I don't believe in individualism in terms of political action; concern for all women is what is required, but I don't think what you wear or don't wear really constitutes much of a political action. It is just surface clutter.

I've skipped from page 2 to page 12 to see if anyone had posted the obvious remark that some of those women probably are on the pull, and good luck to them SGB, I hope your post above wasn't the first to say so. The worryingly judgemental timbre of many posts makes me fear it might be, though.

Dummad, I find it easy to believe in your good intentions but you come over as misogynistic. You are conflating a girl's choice of going-out clothes with her morals, intelligence, politics and professional abilities. This is a little bit odd, if you think about it. If one could buy an entire personality, brain, political outlook and moral compass from Net-a-Porter, life would be fun! Seriously, clothes say all that to you? Don't be daft.

What if you saw the same crowd of youngsters at a funeral? I somehow doubt you'd have rushed on here to complain about the glum condition of Young People Today, all wearing black and looking solemn, not even flirting much

People wear whatever convention dictates they wear to a particular event. That's all. See them next year, they'll be dressed a bit differently. See them at a different pub; different again.

Actually, on re-reading you, you sound a bit like a frustrated prude. Oops, I nearly said dirty old man, sorry!

Have you already told the thread what you and your companion/s were wearing? I'd like to complete my mental picture of the gathering.

Females seeking attention through blatant sexual exhibitionism

Oooh, were they stripping off and giving lap dances?

And is it OK for males to seek attention through blatant sexual exhibitionism?

.

I do think there are conversations to be had about sexual objectification and, in particular, pornification. But this isn't it. You are talking about fashion.

I have never understood what the phrase "I have a right to my opinion" means in the context of lots of people talking about their opinions.

I think it really means "I have a right to be agreed with", Doctrrine

You could be onto something there, Abi

If I had a better figure I'd wear short skirts & killer heels once in a while but I'm happily married so it certainly wouldn't be to pull. I love high heels, they just make me feel the same height as everyone else so glamorous.

SGB raises good points. The women may not want to bother with all that dull marriage stuff and house cleaning and just want some good sex and they dress in a way that is most likely to obtain them that and which they enjoy.

I am more concerned about UK Muslim areas which are requiring women to cover up on the streets and not be public sexual beings whereas many women want sexual freedom (and may not all be out there in rich husband catching mode although that also remains a choice of women which men tend not to have.. mind you there are not that many men around who earn much more than most women so plenty of them fail to hook the meal ticket for life)

OP: the idea that women should refrain from sexual display or the pursuit of casual sex For The Sake Of Society is not remotely feminist. It's just the same old woman-hating bullshit that tells women their own needs, wants, choices etc don't matter, and that to be a woman is to be quiet, submissive, 'modest' and self-denying.

I have been called 'horrible', 'misogynistic', a Daily Mail reader, a Victorian, a frustrated old prude, almost a dirty old man and someone who believes women deserves to be assaulted for the clothes they wear. Who isn't being judged??

Garlic would like to know: "Have you already told the thread what you and your companion/s were wearing? I'd like to complete my mental picture of the gathering." If it helps I will. I had a pair of black jeans, black stilleto suede boots (yes a heel - a three inch heel), a green spaghetti strap top. My friend's wore similar, though we hadn't called each other first to find out. I hope that helps complete the picutre and maybe dispel the myth that I am a dirtly old man. Which is a stereotype by the way. The kind you object to sooooo much.

I haven't once said women SHOULDN'T DO IT! But I'd like to see them making an informed choice - rather than just the choices served up to them on a male dominated media platter.

"People wear whatever convention dictates they wear to a particular event. That's all. See them next year, they'll be dressed a bit differently. See them at a different pub; different again." Exactly. Little obedient fashion puppets. It doesn't make it BETTER. It just demonstrates we're impressionable.

Why isn't the men's fashion industry so established? If the same amount of money was to be made out of men as women - through cashing in on their insecurities - there would be the same fashion empire built around them as there is around us. But maybe, just maybe, they're not so easy to persuade. Maybe they just don't want to please so much. Maybe we should just be a bit STRONGER.

Is this argument about women CONFORMING in general; and why we are so ready to conform? And would women still choose to wear heels and leather corsets if all the men suddenly disapperaed off the face of the earth tomorrow? Nope.

Oh, and you can still ge a shag if you went out wearing an old coal sack if that's what women want. It's quite easy to get sex whatever you dress like especially if you smile at people, relax a bit, listen to what they say, join in a converation, make a joke or two. Stop bloody pouting. Maybe those looking for a ONS ought to try it one day. It might give them a different perspective and a new look that none of your friends or the fashion industry have thought about. Now that really would be original and refreshing.

Most people of either gender and particularly young people tend to want to conform. (I never had that problem).

It's a perfectly good topic to raise. Which is worse women in heels with breast enlargement surgery, (bit like footbinding in ancient China) or women wearing the burkha or other Islamic dress and not just Islamic fundamentalist Christian and Jewish too, skirts so long you cannot run in them and be free? Most people are somewhere in the middle and men and women wearing jeans and T shirt and trainers is a pretty common look across both sexes in many countries.

I suppose the point many posters are trying to make is that no one doubts that there is a degree of responding to sex-object stereotypes by the women you think badly dressed, OP. It's just that holding them entirely responsible for confronting the patriarchy in their day to day lives is not very supportive and is a bit like blaming them for the standards that they are adhering to. Wouldn't it be more supportive to address those standards and being compassionate to the women making the most of the oppressive social standards that they are locked into? And not effectively blaming women for their position in society?

'skirts so long you cannot run in them and be free', and earlier, 'high heels so high women need to hold themselves up to stay upright'. In my opinion where is the difference?

So long as men have an influence on the way we dresss we are not making our own choices.

This is what needs to be addressed.

If in the UK the media was telling girls that this year's fashion was a return to the 70's with flares and flower tops - and THEN the girls went out in the clothes they wore on Saturday night. Well, then I'd be impressed. Because it would be evident they are doing it for themselves and not for what they are being told to do by fashion/music/media barons - who are men.

No one will want to listen to me - after all I'm just an out of touch conservative from what you think. But similarly don't listen to the fashion industry or your peers either who just wants to keep you hooked on their merchandise whatever it is they decide to bring out next. I at least have a genuine concern for women's issues at heart - unlike the latter who is just getting rich at your expense.