Been out. It's not pretty out there. My feminist views are challenged tonight.

[dummad]

Hello, just a quickie coz I'm a bit drunk.

I've been out tonight in a bar in town - a trendy bar. Getting to the point, I'm disappointed ladies. I'm disappointed in what I've seen. Why do young women stand around dressed up like a dog's dinners looking bored out of their minds out of choice? I'm trying very hard not to think it, but I'm on the slippery slope of thinking women don't help themselves be taken seriously when they portray themselves the way they do. I know it's about choice and whatnot, but why CHOOSE to look like little fuck toys if you don't have to? Sorry. I just find it difficult to fly the feminist flag after what I've seen tonight. It's like young women don't give a flying toss about being empowered. They all look the same - tarty, vacuous and vacant. ALL of them. Hundreds of them. There wasn't one young lady in the place tonight without a horrendously short skirt on and killer heals. One group got out of the taxi and had garters tattood around her upper thigh. The men in the queue outside hardly batted an eyelid but one was there making sort of animal gestures to them like he was in a zoo. Maybe that's the sort of reaction these girls wanted.

In the bar guys couldn't even be bothered to approach the women by the looks of it. For two hours we were in there and I didn't see any notable, interaction between the sexes. Of course you'll never get a guy complaining about the way the girls look - they just lap it all up from a distance - it's all just laid out for them and saves the entry fee into the local lap dancing club I guess. They don't give a shit. Sluttier the better in their view. Why the hell don't women today backlash against it? I'd understand if it were a few of them like that but it was all of them. I'm sure they're intelligent, well bought up girls as well. So can't blame it on ignorance/ upbringing or whatever. They are a fucking disgrace.

You know what - I want you to put me right. I want you to tell me I'm wrong and there is hope and that women are aspiring for empowerment and campaign that they are respected as equals. It's up to them isn't it? They are the next generation after all. Don't they honestly care about their place in society? Don't they want to improve things like misrepresentation in the media and violence against women and lower wages etc? Don't they want to be taken seriously? Is this what has happened when women are contented? Is this what we choose to be by default? If so, it's no wonder men look down on us.

No you misunderstand what I was trying to say/ask, at least. You stated that women were the ones that neede to change their gender roles or stereotypes. Presumably you said that because you think those roles and stereotypes are oppressive to women? Male violence is upholds this oppression.

So do you think women changing their dress style (or indeed attitude) is going to stop male violence? If so, why?

I don't get what 50 Shades hass to do with it.

I mean, maybe they were standing about miserable as hell, but what does that have to do with how they were dressed? I see plenty of miserable bastards wearing all sorts of stuff.

It's the main currency most women have, their sexual currency. They will never earn much. Average IQ of 100. Probably few GCSEs, so the best way to get on and have a better life is dress in a way to attract a man who will keep them. There are plenty of kept women on mumsnet. They did not gain that "status" by hiding their light under a bushel.

ooh, maybe wealthy men don't go in for tangerine queens in hot pants!

Holy shit Xenia. That's a pretty bold statement to make, considering women do far better than men educationally.

JustA - do they really?

Husband was really short changed then poor sod. Kept woman who definitely hides her light under a bushel. he can only dream of hot pants.

Yes, Mitchy. That's hardly news, is it?

It is to me! Sorry. Thought it was quite a tiny gap.

Neither dim nor kept but I did once wear hot pants. I don't think you can tell IQ by evaluating peoples clothing choices.

Well I went out on Friday night in skin-tight shimmery leggings, heels and a corset top, and pulled a man half my age. Which was great fun.

I am also a feminist, with a degree and various jobs. I see no contradiction.

SGB, you jammy thing!

I feel for you, OP. i really do. Most of the replies to your post have been knee-jerk reactions along the lines of "you what??"

FWIW, I agree with you. Women don't need to look so tarty. Whatever happened to classy? For everyone who says, "it's a woman's choice to look however she wants to," why is that young women choose, without fail, the platform shoes, mini skirt, long hair look? If we had real choice, there would be an explosion of individuality out there.

"People dress in whatever they feel comfortable and confident in." And that look happenes to be miles of flesh on show? That in itself, rings alarm bells for me.

And it doesn't matter if you have a degree and various jobs and you are a feminist. If you want some action, aka SGB, you'd better get out that corset top. See, it all comes back to attracting men and male approval. Why doesnt someone try this experiment? Sleek jeans, a nice eye-catching top, sensible heels and see if you can still pull...

You make some good points SilentSplendidSun, but you aren't answering the questions you ask.

"If we had real choice, there would be an explosion of individuality out there." Absolutely. Choice is not made in a vacuum. We don't have free choice. The bare flesh is heavily marketed as the fashion for women. As is seeking men and male approval. Everywhere we look women are being told that their worth is in what they look like and their relationship to men.

How individual women dress is not going dent that. Even if fashion did an about face and baggy t-shirts and jeans with slip-on shoes were all the rage, it would not change the fact that a woman's worth is measured by what she looks like, not what she does. And it certainly isn't going to make a dent into male oppression and male violence over women. Insisting women wear something else is just another form of oppression. And the OP is playing right into that.

Yes, Abigail, you say "women are being told..."Told by who?? The media? Peers? I still think if enough individual women make a difference, something can happen. Young women nowadays have too much of a herd mentality, which is a bit depressing.

I do agree with you, male oppression is a stifling reality, however demurely women dress. But women willingly baring so much flesh, doesn't sit comfortably with me. I am of the old school mentality, "Leave something to the imagination" I am "only"35, by the way

I'm so glad it was more docks, big black opaque tights, jeans and then grungy look when I was out and about years ago. I couldn't cope with today's fashions. I never, ever thought heels would ever become the uniform of the day again and much higher than ever. When they started making a come back, I truly thought women wouldn't fall for that again, but they did.

Dressing more demurely and censoring oneself might be a useful strategy for surviving within the patriarchy but no matter how uncomfortable you feel about seeing young girls trotting about town showing yards of flesh, or how ill advised you feel it is to make the choice to dress that way, making sure you are on the right side of the madonna/whore dictomy is not a feminist act; finding ways to mould yourself into naicer wife material is not a feminist act.

That is really well put Amanda.

Why would more choice lead to greater individuality? Most people choose to dress as part of a sub group who all dress the same way. Whether somebody dresses in a way that they consider to be fashionable, sexy, classy, feminine, masculine, young, middle aged, bohemian or whatever, it doesn't mean you are better than anybody else or resisting pressure more than anyone else. You are just conforming to a different subgroup.

I can see that a women wearing very masculine clothes is in some way challenging sexism, but everyone other woman is performing femininity with their clothing choices, which is not a big deal but nor is it a feminist act. Attempting to look 'classy' and deliberately trying to 'leave something to the imagination' is no more or less doing something for male approval than looking sexy is.

Yes, Freya, it IS for male approval. Never said it wasn't. We have biological urges after all. nothing wrong with that. I just think there are other ways to find a mate, rather than putting "all your wares on display" as it were.

And for posters who get all prickly when prostitutes are mentioned, the way a sex worker dresses hasn't changed all that remarkably over the decades. Its a recognised social construct. When such fashions spill over into mainstream fashion, it IS bound to raise a few eyebrows.

I come at it from a purely aesthetic POV. Boobs spilling over do not LOOK good. That is all. To misquote, "I really hate what you are wearing, but I will defend to the death your right to wear it." Just because I dont relish this kind of look doesnt mean I am a victim-blaming, rape apologist.

Obviously they dress within their class and group in a way that attracts men. Now that may be with more or less covered depending on your grouping (and if it's your Alpha bible class in London it may be a skirt to the floor) but whatever your grouping young girls that age choose to play the game to attract a man in the main. I would rather mumsnet campaigned to support one proposed legal change - public nudity than repression and censorship which tends to be its usual supported cause.

"And for posters who get all prickly when prostitutes are mentioned, the way a sex worker dresses hasn't changed all that remarkably over the decades."

did you see my earlier post? have you met any prostitutes in RL?

SSS, some women who dress in that highly groomed but covered up 'classy' way do it for male approval or attention and others do not. You simply cannot assume all women have the same intentions as yourself in life. Is it really that difficult to talk to other women rather than make assumptions about them?

As for biological urges, it's fairly easy to get them met whatever you're wearing. Prostitutes tend to wear casual clothes - jeans, tshirts etc, so I've no idea how you think that spills over into clubwear.

I think a lot of posters on MN do not understand the most common sexual 'services' performed by prostitues that they are likely to fail to see on the streets.

I would say the hyper-feminine Towie/Geordie Shore look owes far more to conventions of transvestite entertainment than actual (as opposed to fantasy) prostitution. It's an absurd exaggeration of what women are 'supposed' to look like and is 99% fake - hair, skin (dyed) lashes, nails, tits etc etc. Working girls on the street dress for comfort and have to be able to scarper/defend themselves at short notice.