Been out. It's not pretty out there. My feminist views are challenged tonight.

[dummad]

Hello, just a quickie coz I'm a bit drunk.

I've been out tonight in a bar in town - a trendy bar. Getting to the point, I'm disappointed ladies. I'm disappointed in what I've seen. Why do young women stand around dressed up like a dog's dinners looking bored out of their minds out of choice? I'm trying very hard not to think it, but I'm on the slippery slope of thinking women don't help themselves be taken seriously when they portray themselves the way they do. I know it's about choice and whatnot, but why CHOOSE to look like little fuck toys if you don't have to? Sorry. I just find it difficult to fly the feminist flag after what I've seen tonight. It's like young women don't give a flying toss about being empowered. They all look the same - tarty, vacuous and vacant. ALL of them. Hundreds of them. There wasn't one young lady in the place tonight without a horrendously short skirt on and killer heals. One group got out of the taxi and had garters tattood around her upper thigh. The men in the queue outside hardly batted an eyelid but one was there making sort of animal gestures to them like he was in a zoo. Maybe that's the sort of reaction these girls wanted.

In the bar guys couldn't even be bothered to approach the women by the looks of it. For two hours we were in there and I didn't see any notable, interaction between the sexes. Of course you'll never get a guy complaining about the way the girls look - they just lap it all up from a distance - it's all just laid out for them and saves the entry fee into the local lap dancing club I guess. They don't give a shit. Sluttier the better in their view. Why the hell don't women today backlash against it? I'd understand if it were a few of them like that but it was all of them. I'm sure they're intelligent, well bought up girls as well. So can't blame it on ignorance/ upbringing or whatever. They are a fucking disgrace.

You know what - I want you to put me right. I want you to tell me I'm wrong and there is hope and that women are aspiring for empowerment and campaign that they are respected as equals. It's up to them isn't it? They are the next generation after all. Don't they honestly care about their place in society? Don't they want to improve things like misrepresentation in the media and violence against women and lower wages etc? Don't they want to be taken seriously? Is this what has happened when women are contented? Is this what we choose to be by default? If so, it's no wonder men look down on us.

Saskia . I have worn shirts that came so far down my legs (I am 5'3") that they would have passed even the OP's exacting standards for modesty of attire. Oh, and fuckadoodle is spot on in her assessment.

Lurcio I know the feeling. I spent half a season wearing a pair of shorts that were so long and voluminous I looked like time traveller from 1890s football.

even the title of this thread pisses me off.

"been out. it's not pretty out there"

who the fuck says it should be?

I was just hiking that! I was!

THINKING

are you also thinking 'why does the whole house smell of cat wee'? And wondering what exactly is wrong with your left wrist?

What's depressing is to read a thread in Feminism/women's rights where the ENTIRE onus for redressing the current awful state of society/gender relations/women's position in society is put on young women.

They just don't have enough socks.

cat wee? yes.
wrist? no i know what's wrong with it

now am worried that if I take my injured wrist to the doctor she will sniff my fingers, even though I hardly ever use that hand

but why would she?

Have you sprained it, perhaps? Unless you are planning to ride a massive horse that has been cooped up for ages, or something equally crazy, you'll be fine.

because she can

I know it's a crime, but I haven't read the whole thread at all. However, surely it's only the clothes that are the fashion right now. I remember 18 years ago, that it was de rigeur to look a bit bored and disinterested. Wasn't that half the point?!! And my skirt was short too.

aaargh!

F**k. I really am old. I'm quoting my last dating experiences. EIGHTEEN years ago. Siiiiigggh.

Well it's good to have heard the other side of the story at least, and what I've learnt is that really you don't give a toss what people think and no one can really argue with that.

Obviously there are always going to be women who feel pressured into dressing this way who may just be doing it to conform because it is just normalised behaviour for this age group. And that's a big worry. Then there's the knock on effect it has to impressionable youngsters who just want to be like their older sisters etc and I think that is dangerous. In a recent project one blogger interviewed girls asking the question 'what does it mean to be a woman?'. The overiding answer was that it was to wear high heels/make up/look pretty. That's gotta change surely?

I firmly believe women are the only ones who need to change gender roles and stereotyping. It's not good enough to say 'well here I am like it or lump it I'm not going to alter' and then expect things to change for the better. But I also think I was a bit narrow minded to think the problem lies with those just having a bit of fun on a Saturday night in town. And I can see after reading some of your posts that it probably is quite exciting to get dressed up in an outrageous outfit and not care what anyone thinks. But I also think it's a bit predictable and wish young women would do something radically different to get noticed rather than just get their tits out.

I don't want to tell anyone what to do, and maybe I was ranting and focusing in the wrong place. But it was good to have it out nonetheless.

1. The outfits weren't outrageous to the people wearing them, as far as we know.

2 The women weren't trying to be noticed, as far as we know.

The whole basis of your argument throughout the whole thread is that you can work out the thoughts, feelings and intentions of others from their clothes. You can't.

"I firmly believe women are the only ones who need to change gender roles and stereotyping."

And you seriously think that what a few young lassies choose to wear for a night out on the lash any impact on the 30% gender pay gap?

Ha ha ha...

Or that they would have an effect on male violence? Do you think them putting a pair of trousers on (or whatever) will stop men raping us?

You actually think women are the only ones who need to change gender roles/stereotyping?? Seriously?? I'm sorry...I have lived a somewhat sheltered life and all but even I can see how much damage is caused by males living up (down) to male stereotyps. Far more than is caused by women in skirts drinking in a bar and minding their own business.

I am starting to think the OP was a wind up.

I have to admit to jumping straight to end of this thread, reading the first and last pages. Because I went out on Saturday night and had a very similar experience, but my take on it was completely different.

I was in a pub to meet up with a bunch of mates as we were all going to a party together. It's a dive, this pub, but it's local. Definitely not the sort of place where punters dress up.

We were sitting, thinking about leaving, when there was a sudden mass influx of about 30 people in total. Seems it was someone's birthday and they'd all arrived together. The whole lot arrived in about 15 minutes. God only knows how they synchronised that.

I guess 6 or so were young women. And they looked astounding! Their heels were astonishingly high, and their hair was a mix of Amy Winehouse, Cheryl Cole and a young Brigitte Bardot. Their clothes were tiny and skintight. Their make up was extensive, perfect and very heavy. The main effect in the context of where we all were was that they were massively overdressed. They couldn't have been more unsuitably dressed for this downmarket little boozer if they'd turned up in ballgowns. Over the top just doesn't cover it.

I said to my friend "Let's work out an amateur sociology theory about these girls" and we watched them, which was easy, as they made a point of ignoring us. The older women and men and the lads weren't done up in any noticeable way. In fact some of them were pretty scruffy. None of them was even vaguely as stylish as the young women.

We decided that it was all about competition. None of the girls seemed to give two hoots what the boys were thinking. They didn't seem to interact with the boys, or the older men. We decided they cared only about each other. I think it must be a product of magazines like Closer and reality TV stuff, like the Only Way is Essex. I mean the idea that women should look like this.

The girls did everything together, going to the loo, using the juke box. They were very unfriendly to the women in our little group. Stared right through us with hard eyes from the moment they walked in. It seemed that to them other women were rivals, with the whole dressing up business about some female pecking order. It was astonishing, and rather horrifying, particularly the hostility. My male friend said it was just like peacocks, only in reverse.

I know quite a few young women because I have teenage sons, and none of them go in for this sort of display. I think it's a particular subculture, like goths, etc. Dunno if there's a name for it, but it's quite disconcerting.

I'm not talking about women wearing skirts - I have been clear about that. This is about provocative clothing that is more akin to bondage or whatever that practice is called in Fifty Shades.

I can assure you what I saw is competitive statement dressing. And I have said by the way that I'm not suggesting women deserves raping for the way they decide to express themselves. That is just so way off the mark

I did also say that if they were all having a jolly old time then I'd have thought better of the situation, but my experience sounds identical to Writehand, where it was all about posing and hostility and competition. Maybe this isn't about dress, maybe the underlying problem is the attitude. Everyone thinking about themselves, wanting to be seen rather than mix and socialise.

HOWEVER, what I've also come to realise is that this was fairly early on in the evening. Maybe in the small hours when the club was really going people would have relaxed more and let go a bit.

It's also worth saying that when we see girls wearing these clothes on the STREET, shivering and looking a bit sad, they merely travelling between destinations. When they are in a sweaty club dancing away with everyone else dressed the same they won't of course seem so cold, exposed and vulnerable as they do when I see them. I suppose it's contextual.