Five men facing death penalty after bus rape

[allthegoodnamesweretaken]

BBC news link here

I'm feeling conflicted about this. Obviously what these men did was horrific, vile and unforgivable. But I just cannot agree with the death penalty.

I feel like I am somehow excusing what they did by not wanting them to be killed, and I can't emphasise enough how despicable I find their actions.

Does the fact that they violated the poor woman's human rights so violently and abhorrently mean they should have their right to life taken away too? Am i being too soft?

I suppose I am asking how you all feel about this, how do you think they should be punished? Also have you ever had your feminist views conflict with other principles, and how have you dealt with this?

Ridiculous man.

I think the fact that the death penalty is already there in India, anything less, in a high profile case such as this, would have the effect of sending a really negative message to the women of India.

On the cost effectiveness question, I think it's different in wealthier countries, but in a country where people struggle to eat, giving these six men meals and security for life is wrong.

I don't agree with the death penalty at all. Find a really unpleasant prison with awful conditions and stick them in there in solitary for the rest of their life.

grimble thank you for that. i wish i hadn't seen it but glad i did. it just highlights how far we still have to go to correct it. that poor woman's family having to hear this shit.

I find it really insulting to be told that objecting in principle to the death sentence is being some kind of rape apologist.

WantsToBeFree - you say 'it doesn't have to be the death penalty' - well there you are then. Everyone is as upset and horrified about this as you, and everyone recognises the sexual hate and power constructs at work in this case. It's a bit rich to claim moral superiority just because people have different principles or beliefs while sharing a common horror.

urg. A presumably well educated, well paid, lawyer defending on the basis of victim blaming is actually more evil in my books than the presumably lower class uneducated socially disadvantaged men that did the deed.

Still won't support the death penalty, even for the lawyer.

Truly disgusting.

The lawyer's conduct is despicable beyond belief.

Presumably he was trying desparately (and faililng) to find any defence or mitigation. Hopefully with the strength of feeling as it is in India atm this will ruin his career.

Wants "Men and women are equal and should be treated in that way."

Agreed. On that point I think that neither men nor women should be murdered - no exceptions.

"When you advocate humane treatment and "rights" for men who perpetuate brutality and violence against women, you are in effect trivialising the seriousness if the crime and doing women a disservice. "

I advocate murder being murder no matter who did it. And I believe murder is wrong, never ever right.

"They deserve to be punished."

Absolutely.

Still don't agree with the death penalty.

grimbletart "But then some of those opposing the death penalty go on to say that killing them means they get off without real punishment and should be locked up and suffer the consequence of what they did for the rest of their lives. "

In my personal opinion it isn't about making them suffer (though I have mentioned it in order to make a point about the desire to see them suffer not necessarily being a good reason for the death penalty).

It's about stopping them being a danger. It is giving them a chance to reform, though I don't necessarily believe they will. It is also about forcing people to think on what they have done, which the death penalty wont do. And it is, of course, about never ever condoning murder.

mindosa "Most posters mentioned wanting to live in a society that is better than the perpetrators"

Totally agree. I don't want to live in a world where death creates more death and so on and so forth.

For those of you who agree with the death penalty do you also agree with vigilantism? Because surely in a society where the state has said it's ok to kill in response to a killing, then how can that society then frown on those who will also kill in retaliation?

wants "perhaps you can come up with a constructive suggestion as to how we can punish these men"

Incarceration is a punishment. And as chunky said, "no punishment will ever be commensurate with those men's actions as most justice systems are not made up of 'evil subhumans' willing to inflict such brutality on another human being"

"Yes,yes talk about the rights of criminals and lets sympathise with them"

Again, no one has. You've said they have, but no one actually has. Saying it over and over again don't make it true.

So you would brutalise and sodomise them? How does that make you any less "sub human" then them?

I like TeaJunky's idea of a good world. Rather than the 5 men in this instance being willing and able to brutalise other humans, they'd also like to be able to brutalise others. So more "sub human" behaviour rather than less. Good good.

On the point about appeasing the people angry about this case, surely it's better to let them stay angry? Otherwise what the hell will change? If these men die then some people will be appeased and think, "well that's the end of that". Except it isn't. This isn't the first rape and neither is it likely to be the last. That anger is needed!

FairyJen "Secondly life in prison is hardly a punishment in my opinion"

In all honesty it doesn't sound awful to me either, however, I've never been in prison. You also need to remember that the prison population will also have mothers/sisters/daughters, do you think these guys will get a pat on the back and be treated as heroes? Especially given the public outrage, the prison population will know of it. You think that anyone who hurt or killed these men in prison would be hated? I suspect these men will be living in fear of their lives.

Wants "And you Trills calling those men 'human' is tragic."

I ask again, are they not homo sapiens? If not, which species are they?

Excellent post, MurderOfGoths.

Err goths, that wasn't Wants who said that, it was me.

Sorry, I lost track in that long post.

Still, my point still stands.

MurderofGoths,

A post that demonstrates you haven't understood a word of what is being said. Yes, seems like you lost track.

Anyway, you are welcome to your noble and naive views.

By all means advocate humanity for people who deny it to women. By all means let rapists get off easy by giving them a chance to "reflect" and "reform" instead of actually punishing them. By all means insult victims by comparing the death of innocents with the execution of criminals.

If you think that your version of justice will deter rapists, then you're welcome to your bubble. You're basically saying this- rape, mutilate, murder, brutalise and we'll put you in jail, feed you, treat you like a human being and give you a chance to "reflect" and "reform". If I'm a rapist, I'm not scared in the slightest.

And yes, you are trivialising crime against women by not advocating strong punishment for the perpetrators. It doesn't have to be the death penalty, but it has to be something strong.

If women themselves start advocating human rights and mercy for rapists, we will never solve this problem. It's true, I guess- women are their own worst enemy.

"A post that demonstrates you haven't understood a word of what is being said."

So which part do I not understand, according to you?

Because so far it's been explained to you how no one wants them to "get off easy"?

And you've been given evidence that the death penalty deters no one, and in fact areas with no death penalty have lower crime rates.

"but it has to be something strong. "

What would you suggest? Torture, murder, rape?

I completely agree with murderofgoths too.

One point that I think is really important is that to stop future crimes of this nature and to minimise rape, the society needs to change.

This debate is fundamentally misdirection from the key issues of this case, which are about changing attitudes to women, especially in Indian culture, education and the proper application or necessary changes to law to make that happen.

And yes, I acknowledge that India reserves the right to use the death penalty, but as many posters here have demonstrated, it is absolutely no deterrent. What, however, is a demonstrable deterrent is if attitudes to women change and become more equal then it becomes less likely they are viewed as sub human or worthless.which in turn will reduce this type of crime.

WantsToBeFree have you considered the argument that if there is the death penalty for both rape and murder, then that's actually an incentive for rapists to kill their victim as they have nothing to lose - they might as well?

Also, are you comfortable with the idea that if a death penalty exists, innocent people will be killed (the reality is that this happens everywhere there is the death penalty?) Are you happy for innocent people to be put to death so that you can also kill the guilty ones?

Murderofgoths. You do indeed live in a bubble. All of you twits spouting tripe about 'reform' and human rights are exactly why women are murdered and raped everyday, including children too, PURELY because the perpetrators are let off and merrily go about their business to do it again. Will any of you get it through your thick heads that these animals do not and will not change? I don't want to out myself but I'm a former HCP as well as being familiar in the child protection industry, and I can tell you confidently that rapists and paedophiles have something severely wrong with them. Whether its genetic or a chosen path, scientists and psychotherapists are still researching, but they do not change and pose a terrible risk to normal people.

I am against the death penalty in general, however, I think the authorities have no choice but to use it here. Anything less would be seen as an insult - and in such a high profile case as this, it's important to send the message that this is not acceptable.

I believe Wants answered those earlier.

It seems the answer is that a few innocents dying is collateral damage. Innocents killed by "sub humans" are bad.
Innocents killed by government are ok.

Makes perfect sense.

Strange isn't it, a dog bites or maimes someone and we do not hesitate to put them down. The dogs that penetrated Jyoti with a huge iron bar are apparently did not do enough damage to be put down. You all think yourselves so noble and 'tolerant' I expect, but seriously have no idea in hell about the real world.

You keep going on about women on this thread having no idea about the "real world" (whereas you, presumably, do?)

That is not only insulting - as you can have no idea about their lives - but inaccurate. Accept it: they have a different opinion to you.

Waynetta

You're confidentially sharing on a very public website that millions of people use.

And furthermore, if you do indeed have anything to do with child protection, you would know that social work 101 says park your own opinions at the door.

Waynetta Please find a post where I have said any of the below

• murderers having "rights"
• letting them go
• allowing them to reoffend

Because unless I spaced out/was possessed/developed multiple personality disorder, I haven't said that.

I have said they need to be punished. I have said they need to be stopped from harming others.

The only thing I disagree with is that the death penalty is

• morally right
• useful
• a deterrent

"Strange isn't it, a dog bites or maimes someone and we do not hesitate to put them down."

See, on that I think a dog shouldn't be put down, and instead should be trained/homed somewhere it cannot hurt others.

No hypocrisy here.

"but seriously have no idea in hell about the real world."

How dare you suggest that, I was just saying to Aslan the other day..

Waynetta insults are the sign of a failed argument.

TheMysteryCat. Do read my post properly. I never disclosed my job or said anything about any situation. have you considered my personal life experience also? Murder. You think the death penalty is not a detterant? Ok. So do you think a few years in jail is a detterant also? Why don't you look up the re-offending statistics of rapists and paedophiles?