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Original poster

Five men facing death penalty after bus rape

522 replies

allthegoodnamesweretaken · 13/01/2013 19:15

BBC news link here

I'm feeling conflicted about this. Obviously what these men did was horrific, vile and unforgivable. But I just cannot agree with the death penalty.

I feel like I am somehow excusing what they did by not wanting them to be killed, and I can't emphasise enough how despicable I find their actions.

Does the fact that they violated the poor woman's human rights so violently and abhorrently mean they should have their right to life taken away too? Am i being too soft?

I suppose I am asking how you all feel about this, how do you think they should be punished? Also have you ever had your feminist views conflict with other principles, and how have you dealt with this?

OP posts:
DreamsTurnToGoldDust · 14/01/2013 16:37

I`m a bit confused though, are people asking for the death penalty just for this crime, or all muders, rapes etc?

TeaJunky · 14/01/2013 16:38

I wonder blue, if this happened on your doorstep, if you'd be a bit less worried about the punishment and more concerned about the crime.

PacificDogwood · 14/01/2013 16:40

Yes, they were human. Not monsters. What they did was monstrous. I think is it important to not make them out to be 'other' from every other human being - the fact that there was another bus rape kind of proves that, sadly.

I am against the death penalty as a punishment or as 'vengeance'; I feel that would really put me on the same ethical level as them.
I also agree with the posters who said putting them to death seems to little a punishment as their life would be over rather than an ongoing penalty.
Doing to them as they did to Jhoti is too old testament for my liking - it might be 'fair', but not Right.

However - IMO in this case (and seeing that the dealth penalty is a possible punishment in Indian law) they must be convicted and given a death sentence to serve as an example that Indian society and legislation will Not Stand For This.
The more I've thought about this, the more strongly I feel about it.
Yes, I would want to see that an example as been made of them.
I feel somewhat asthonished at my strength of opinion on this, but there it is.

V interesting thread.

TeaJunky · 14/01/2013 16:41

Dreams - I don't have an issue with the death penalty in general. But for particularly brutal cases such as these, I do believe the death penalty is not enough.

There should be something more severe.

Ok, I accept that nobody would want 'sodomiser' as their job title on the old cv.

But there should be something beyond a death penalty for such heinous crimes, that takes the perps officially out of the description of 'human' and into the realm of 'devil'.

ExpatAl · 14/01/2013 16:42

It has been proved time and time again that the death penalty is not a deterrent.

ExpatAl · 14/01/2013 16:45

You have to live within society's rules. Being barbaric is not going to help India stop being barbaric towards their women. The young Indian men and women of today are the people that can stop this.

PacificDogwood · 14/01/2013 16:47

I know, ExpatAl.
Yet I still consider it important that in this case a strong signal is sent.

ExpatAl · 14/01/2013 16:51

I think it would send a message that they know India is pretty het up about this dogwood - nothing more. A better message would be if the whole of the Indian govt plus EVERYONE in authority said that rape or violence towards women is wrong. There needs to be a massive attitude change towards their women. Death penalty doesn't offer any progress.

PacificDogwood · 14/01/2013 16:52

I think the signal I am looking for is not towards future potential rapists, but towards woman and girls: anyone doing this to you will be punished to the full extent of the law.

Also, once killed, they will never rape again.

PacificDogwood · 14/01/2013 16:53

x-post with you, ExpatAl, I do see your point, I do.
Still cannot help myself...

FairyJen · 14/01/2013 16:55

After pondering in this I feel maybe I am in favour o the death penalty and quite strongly so.

Firstly it was said up thread the cost of appeals etc is more expensive than life in prison, well then we shouldn't have appeals. We either have faith in the legal system or we don't. Why bother holding trials if they can be appealed. Change the system so it works and the innocent are found innocent etc then there is no need for appeal. If a person is DIY d guilty they are guilty end of or there is no point to the system.

Secondly life in prison is hardly a punishment in my opinion. They may not have as many choices as free people do but still, how many families and individuals are around at the moment worried about how to pay the bills, mortgage, feed their children and heat their homes etc. how many people go without food so their children can eat? These are law abiding innocent people.

Otoh joe bloggs serial killer has a roof permanently over his wad, three meals a day he doesn't have to worry about when he retires etc etc etc. sounds cushy to me. Security handed to Ou on a plate.

I don't think it's fair. If they are dangerous to be in prison for life we should just get rid of them permanently rather than pay for them to sit around. I think the death penalty is a good thing as should be carried out a lot quicker if someone is found guilty.

To many people find prison a badge of honor now it's not a punishment ad the system needs to change!

Rant over flame away!

ChunkyChicken · 14/01/2013 16:56

Teajunky I refer you to my post from earlier, and if you have time, perhaps you could read some of the earlier posts still, including my own.

^ChunkyChicken Mon 14-Jan-13 15:51:25
wantstobe no punishment will ever be commensurate with those men's actions as most justice systems are not made up of 'evil subhumans' (to use your own words) willing to inflict such brutality on another human being, which is why we are shocked and appalled by such a crime - it is not normal behaviour. Therefore, I think you have missed the points I made previously - if someone is willing to carry out such evil acts upon another human, even legally, what does that say about them?^

Yes India has a rarely used death penalty, yes these criminals deserve punishment to the full extent of the law and yes, if that's the law of the land, the death penalty should be applied. But questioning the principle of the death penalty, particularly when the situation is so emotive and the crime so brutal, does not make one soft, stupid or anti-feminist.

It is clearly a terrible crime, inflicted on an innocent young woman, who deserves only sympathy and to be remembered for her bravery, but killing her attackers will not bring her back, change the society she lived in or mean that other women are protected. Those men are, I presume, behind bars currently and yet more rapes have occurred, without doubt, and some of them may even have been in the media. Nobody is saying these men should be free or go unpunished, some people are perhaps just saying they should not be killed for their crimes.

ExpatAl · 14/01/2013 16:56

I think you're thinking about Western prisons FairyJen

FairyJen · 14/01/2013 17:00

I'm including them in my thoughts because I'm thinking if the death penalty in general. As in bring it back.

This is a shocking crime yes but similar has happened here over the years and worse. If the punishment fits....

PacificDogwood · 14/01/2013 17:03

I also agree that Indian society must change in order for these crimes to no longer occur. And that kind of change is always difficult and will take a long time.
However, in a society were apparently 94% of rapes/sexual assaults are carried out by family members and the assaulted women are then punished for being 'spoiled goods', I am not sure how such change can ever be affected, unless the government and the highest level of the justice system get visibly behind the need for change.

And yes, I'd imagine a lifetime in an Indian prison with fellow prisoners knowing what you did, is unlikely to not be a punishment...

Branleuse · 14/01/2013 17:11

Indian society WANTS the death penalty for rape. They already have it for murder. Its not a case of suddenly introducing it. There is a HUGE problem and there is no deterrant at all at the moment.

www.indianexpress.com/section/crime---justice/801/

NotGoodNotBad · 14/01/2013 17:14

"Change the system so it works and the innocent are found innocent etc then there is no need for appeal."

Glad you have the solution to avoiding miscarriages of justice. Hmm

WaynettaSlobsLover · 14/01/2013 17:19

Tea junky you are spot on with everything you have said. Some of these namby pamby middle class types with no real knowledge or life experience will always support the human rights of feral animals. The lovely justice system in the uk sums this up perfectly! And you Trills calling those men 'human' is tragic. Senseless too.

PacificDogwood · 14/01/2013 17:26

As somebody said upthread the need to call these men 'monsters' or 'subhuman' is a need to distance ourselves from their horrible deeds. They are in fact human and not feral animals. I wish I fully understood what set of values makes people capable of such horrific crimes SadAngry.
But then again I can find no way to explain the deeds of, say, the Inquisition or the Third Reich or Apartheid or Rebel armys in Northern Uganda - all committed by humans.

WaynettaSlobsLover · 14/01/2013 17:29

They are biologically human but what actually makes us human is socialised behaviour and the conscience we use to differentiate from right and wrong, but these men have none of those, and so they are soulless, in other words monsters and feral animals. Anyone got it yet?

Trills · 14/01/2013 17:30

Calling them human is tragic and senseless?

It sounds as if you don't know what "human" means.

FarelyKnuts · 14/01/2013 17:32

Waynetta I find your assumptions "namby pamby middle class types with no real knowledge or life experience will always support the human rights of feral animals" distasteful.
You have no idea of peoples life experiences nor knowledge on this thread. It is fine to disagree with someone's opinion, but not to use insults to do so.
How would you know that there are not people on this thread that have been raped and/or brutalised?

Trills · 14/01/2013 17:33

"Soulless" is a pretty meaningless term.

You don't get to decide who counts as human or not.

All humans deserve a certain level of treatment. Even those who "cannot tell right from wrong".

They are not monsters, they are people.

grimbletart · 14/01/2013 17:39

I see that even in this most extreme of cases the victim is being blamed (by the lawyer who is defending three of the men).

www.businessweek.com/news/2013-01-10/delhi-rape-victims-are-to-blame-defendants-lawyer-says

Booyhoo · 14/01/2013 17:55

"Some of these namby pamby middle class types with no real knowledge or life experience will always support the human rights of feral animals. The lovely justice system in the uk sums this up perfectly! And you Trills calling those men 'human' is tragic. Senseless too. "

you can try as much as you like to deny likeness with these people, but people they are. they are your own species, your own breed. they are human. as i said before, it is an insult to all animals to liken these men to them. an animal would never subject one of their own or any other species to what they have done. these are men that commited these crimes against that girl, men of our species, of our communities and social conditioning. it is humans that have created rape and murder, and human men that have carried it out. they must be treated and condemned as humans. to have them put down like animals removes their humanity in the same way that they chose to deny the humanity of their victim.

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