Good piece on sex work by Laurie Penny

[SolidGoldFrankensteinandmurgh]

Here. She puts it a bit more elegantly than I usually do...

Working in a brothel is already legal, as is using the services of brothel-workers.

It's illegal for someone else to profit.

Yes, if they also control.

So the law would have to change so that people could exploit the labour of one person (the prostitute/sex worker) to make a profit either for a private business owner or corporate employer. If this changed it would then become of prime interest to the employer to exploit workers for as much profit as possible. What is interesting is that a lot of political interest from capitalists in deregulating and making it easier to set up lapdance clubs. Couple that with the fact that the liberals want a change to the language used around prostitution. lapdancing and porn is sex work and is legal and these workers work for others, now we have to use the same language "sex work" to describe prostitution. Change happens slowly for a reason! and you have to change the way people think first so that they will accept full legalisation of capitalistic labour exploitation of prostitution. It will happen. Which is why it is important not be forced to adopt the language of the pro-prostitution lobby. Which I guess may be another reason why so many radicals INSIST on using the language that has been used for 100's of years.

I don't know what you mean by 'control.' Pimping and running a brothel in the UK is illegal - 'living on immoral earnings'.

The offense of "living off immoral earnings" is outdated. The new offense is profiting from, and controlling, the activities of prostitutes.

It is for the courts to determine what "control" is.

That's how I understand the law, Owl. as profiting from or controlling to be illegal.

You must both profit from, and control to be committing an offence.

In practice it is virtually impossible to prove in the case of a brothel (any address out of which more than one is working) that someone isn't profiting.

It's easy to prove profit. Proving "control" can be more challenging; is it "control" if the profiteer insists on the use of condoms for all services? Is it control if s/he sets the work rota for the week?

True. So, should we just make it legal to profit and employ (control) ?

I think so, yes, with regulations drawn up. Eg, condoms must always be used, regular health check-ups, and so on.

Sounds like the rest of the sex industry....there is no exploitation here

Very interesting point made by Gail dines in that talk, I linked. She was talking about the way that those that were pro-industry always made the point that it was about free will and free choice, the women were in control etc,,, then she linked to some other anecdotal evidence taken from men in the industry. The men and the chat taken from the pro-porn sites paint a different picture entirely. The producers, the directors, the viewers and the punters they tell a different story. One director who was interviewed for Dine's book said he left the industry when the producer would regularly ring and tell him to "wreck the bitch" The pro-sex industry lobby os full of vested financial interests...male and shell shocked exploited women who live a reality that they hide from themselves. Exited women tell another story and so on. I don't think it should be legalised a more radical solution needs to be found.

"It is not inconceivable that in time where sex work is made legal and the liberal mind-benders can convince people that sex work is just like any other employment choice that women could be forced into it or have their benefits sanctioned."

Despite what some liar tabloids say who are desperate to get attention by posting any old crap that will get shock reactions, this has never happened. And I doubt it ever will.

"Men do it because they can and they can get away with it."

I listed a couple of reasons for visiting sex workers in my last post.

And funnily enough even if you do pass a law criminalizing it it will still happen. Prostitution is illegal in almost all of the USA yet it's still a thriving multi-billion dollar industry there. Even in Sweden where only clients are criminalized prostitution happens just as much except it has moved off the street and indoors (but this could also be because of internet bookings).

Make something illegal then you create a black market for it and far from being a deterrent you risk making it a "forbidden fruit" even more attractive (tell someone they can't have something and they will want it even more).

And for the swedish law to get a conviction against the client the sex worker has to actually testify against him in court. You can guess the chances of that happening (if the sex worker isn't forced do you really think she will want her customers to go to prison??)...

To back up my last statment here is an extract from United Nations-backed Global Commission on HIV and the Law July 2012 (page 38)

www.hivlawcommission.org/resources/report/FinalReport-Risks,Rights&Health-EN.pdf

"Sweden?s Alliance of Counties says that resources for social work are scarce, as the money has been siphoned to
policing. In spite of over 2,000 arrests, only 59 clients have been reported suspected of buying occasional sex. Only two
have been convicted, after pleading guilty. No one has been jailed, and only low ? nes have been imposed, as per the
law. Evidence to prove a crime is nearly unattainable. Workers do not consider themselves to be victims and are almost
always unwilling to testify against their clients."

What utter shite! The government are hardly likely to expect people to get involved in prostitution and it certainly will not be an option down the job centre. Do you not think enough people drain the NHS as it is without adding sexual diseases and psychologically damaged people to drain it's resources. Who the fuck is going to put prostitution an a CV. Don't be so fucking stupid.

Well, making murder illegal hasn't stopped that, so let's not bother making murder a crime either.

And only six percent of rapists are convicted, so that's obviously a waste of police time and money too.

Prostitution breaks up families, degrades and exploits women, empowers men. Causes STI's and unwanted pregnancies. Why would the law change to encourage this? Who picks up the costs NHS. Wives can't cope, children can't cope with family break-up. Men claim to be having nervous breakdown when caught as it's far easier than admitting the truth. Girls selling themselves end up with disease, low self worth, need therapy. Daughters don't understand why their dads pay women for sex. Sons grow up thinking it's ok to pay women for sex. Everyone needs fucking therapy. Everyones having therapy. But thats ok thank fucking christ for the good old NHS.

Prostitution needs to be illegal. It needs to stop not be encouraged. All this claptrap on here about legalising it is utter fucking bullshit. Some prostitutes are just 18 years old. Someones daughter. What the fuck do you want to legalise next? Child abuse?

All this talk about legalising prostitution is indeed bullshit, because it's already legal. The rest of your rants, ChickenSoup, are just that, rants, and ill-considered at best. Do you stop "being someone's daughter" at 21, 25, 30, 50....? When do women stop being "someone's daughter" and start being adult women, capable of making their own decisions, however distasteful to their parents?

A rapist
A murderer
A prostitute

Goth . Your point is? A girl who is having to sell her own body abuses herself. A murderer , A rapist both attack people. Not ever a waste of resources to tackle crime.

back at ya!

Lovely, ChickenSoup, just lovely. I do like a bit of reasoned argument, shame you prefer personal abuse.

Btw, I won't report your post, though it is undoubtedly personal abuse, I'd prefer to see it stand.

Hope your hangover isn't too bad in the morning. :)

I do believe that Anne was being ironic in her tone, to try and point out why Franzs point was not very valid.
Maybe sleep time, chicken?

chickensoup thats not very nice and incredibly rude!

i for one dont agree with it, only in the sense that it ruined my marriage however i dont agree that a woman abuses herself doing it, more that shes just moral less (unless shes forced etc) and is willing to have sex with other peoples men for money

your last post was out of order xx