Good piece on sex work by Laurie Penny

[SolidGoldFrankensteinandmurgh]

Here. She puts it a bit more elegantly than I usually do...

Big difference between murder/rape/child abuse and prostitution. In murder/rape/child abuse there is never consent. Putting an escort in the same category as a rape victim IMO would be insulting to the rape victim.

And like I said chickensoup making it illegal will not stop it or significantly reduce it. But it will drive it underground making the whole industry more dangerous and the huge amount of money it costs to try and enforce such laws means less money for other things like social work.

Some prostitutes are just 18 years old

Correct. But 18 years of age isn't a child.

Not sure that men belong to anyone, katie, but am aware of (some of) your backstory, and understand your point.

Chicken, I think you'll find you agree with GothAnn's posts, she was being ironic.

Franz (why have you changed from Frans to Franz btw?) you miss the point of the Swedish sex laws completely and just regurgitating stuff from various pro-sex industry propaganda sites. The Swedish sex laws have vastly reduced prostitution in Sweden and almost completely eliminated trafficking. Not bad for a little bit of legislation.

No they haven't. All they are able to say is street prostitution has halved.

Is the United Nations-backed Global Commission on HIV and the Law a "pro-sex industry propaganda site"?

And the "pro-sex industry propaganda sites" aren't the ones pumping out complete lies such as claiming 75% of prostitutes start work as children, or claiming women are forced to get a job in a brothel or lose benefits.

Is anyone going to tell that country that most prostitution takes place indoors?

www.firstadvocates.org/sites/firstadvocates.org/files/Swedish-model-a-failure_0.pdf

"Sweden enforces its sex work laws by targeting
street-based sex work clients, and only charts the
impact of its laws by assessing what is happening
on the street. Immediately after the law was
passed, Sweden allotted 7 million kronor ($1.2
million CND) to enforce the new law ? the only
target was the street-based trade. Police, armed
with video cameras, filmed any car that slowed
down near a sex worker, effectively frightening
away clients, thus driving the sex workers off the
streets."

and five years ago it was inconceivable that the government would release a report on privatising state education.......but that is what they have done today! The wheels turn slowly, so from maggie and her neo-liberal agenda it has taken over 30 years for this recent proposal to be put out for public reaction to be assessed.

Prostitution breaks up families, degrades and exploits women, empowers men. Causes STI's and unwanted pregnancies. Why would the law change to encourage this? Who picks up the costs NHS. Wives can't cope, children can't cope with family break-up. Men claim to be having nervous breakdown when caught as it's far easier than admitting the truth. Girls selling themselves end up with disease, low self worth, need therapy. Daughters don't understand why their dads pay women for sex. Sons grow up thinking it's ok to pay women for sex. Everyone needs fucking therapy. Everyones having therapy. But thats ok thank fucking christ for the good old NHS

But isn't that what we already have? My point is that by changing the language used from prostitution to sex work we start to change the way we think. We minimise the harm and we start to shape the way people view it so that at some time in the future, the liberals and the capitalists will be free to exploit women as commodities for profit, not just as lapdancers, not just in porn but as "prostitutes" The laws will be relaxed if there is money to be made. That is why I have a problem with laurie Penny, as a socialist she is muddled! we should not be altering the language and allowing a seeping culture of further exploitation of women.

As regards law, it doesn't work, historically proven. Its the economic relations btw all people that needs changing.

Katie, women who enter prostitution do not do so through lack of morals but through lack of economic and social power.

Franz. The Swedish gov's own enquiry into the efficacy of the sex laws in 2011.

Street prostitution reduced by half. This reduction may be considered to be a direct result of the criminalisation of sex purchases. In a comparison, we have noted that the prevalence of street prostitution was about the same in the three capital cities of Norway, Denmark and Sweden before the ban on the purchase of sexual services was introduced here, but the number of people in street prostitution in both Norway and Denmark subsequently increased dramatically. In 2008, the number of people in street prostitution in both Norway and Denmark was estimated to be three times higher than in Sweden.

Furthermore, there is no evidence that prostitution has been pushed underground:

there is nothing to indicate that Internet-based prostitution has increased more in Sweden than in these comparable countries (Denmark & Norway). This contradicts the idea that street prostitution has simply changed arenas to the Internet. With this in mind it seems reasonable to conclude that the 50% decrease in street prostitution that has occurred is a real reduction of prostitution in Sweden, and that this reduction is probably primarily an effect of the criminalisation of sex purchases.

Source So we can all find a study that can back up our claims, Franz. Only the ones supporting your pro-prostitution view generally a financial vested interest in prostitution. The site you linked to to is not the UN. It is a pro-sex industry site.

The men who pay girls and women for sex do so through lack of morals.

katiemum you need to remember that it was your husband who said his vows to you, not the person he paid to have sex with. take the blinkers off darling. i cant imagine that the girl he paid to have sex with sought out your hubby he went looking for her. i dont suppose she held a gun to his head either. your husband ruined you marriage all by himself. he had no respect for you. how many more has he had that you dont know about? do you trust a word that comes out of his mouth? more fool you if you do. sounds like he has done a good job on you feeling sorry for him. bless his cotton socks. if you take him back he will do it again and you you going to blame then? a relationship with constant doubts and mistrust. good luck.

@Sabrina, all that harps on about street prostitution which now makes up a minority of all prostitution (in both Sweden and the UK).

When many people think prostitution they first thing that comes into their mind is a women on a street corner or leaning into a car. But today most of it isn't like that. Most prostitution is indoors such as escorting booked from phone calls or internet, and escorts travel to their clients discreetly in "civilian" clothes then when they arrive at their client's place they usually change into something more sexy.

And page 38 from this report suggests the sex trade overall happens just as much contradicting the report you posted:

"Underground trade, more violence
Street-based sex work is halved in Sweden, according to the police, but the sex trade remains at pre-law levels. It has
simply moved further underground,to hotels and restaurants, as well as the Internet?and to Denmark. The Swedish
State Criminal Department warns that the sex trade may now be more violent. Especially worrying is the trade in foreign
women, who often fall entirely under the control of pimps."

www.hivlawcommission.org/resources/report/FinalReport-Risks,Rights&Health-EN.pdf

Franz, serious question, is someone paying you to lobby for the pro sex industry lobby? Selling people as commodities because men feel they have the right to purchase anything is wrong. Would you encourage working class people to sell their Kidneys to pay their water bill? I expect so. I'm out. You have a vested interest somewhere here, It's plain.

Like I said, Frans - you can find a report to support either point of view. The report I linked to found no evidence for an increase in internet based prostitution - and found that the law has produced a net reduction in prostitution rather than just pushed it underground.

As always it depends who you talk to. What is for sure is that the Swedish Model has been deemed a success by the Swedish government 10 years on- and is extremely popular amongst the Swedish people - with around 80% being in favour of the laws.

The pro-sex industry lobby - the pimps and traffickers, the people with a financial vested interest in the sex industry - like Douglas Fox who runs the ISUW (who you linked to earlier) - well, they hate the existence of the Swedish Law. They hate it so much that will do anything to discredit it - because it's this sort of enlightened law-making that will severely limit their profiteering from exploited women.

Yes, MinitheMinx. I was wondering the exact same thing.

Katie - I really couldn't care less if you think my post was rude. If you have a problem with it, report it and get it deleted! Furthermore, I make absolutely no apology whatsoever for what I said about OldLady & Frans/z. I don't care if my post is deleted, they read it, they know what I think and I make no apology for that. The only apology I make is to GothAnn. I was in no mood for irony last night.
I am sick of pimps idiots on this thread talking shite. Still am and refuse to read anymore of their repetetive drivel. It is clear that OldLady and Frans/z have a vested interest in prostitution and anyone too stupid to see that can jog on.
I'm off and won't be returning so go ahead do your reporting and get this deleted too. I cannot be arsed with this thread anymore.

"The report I linked to found no evidence for an increase in internet based prostitution"

I don't suppose it has any evidence internet prostitution decreased either? So from a complete lack of evidence the Swedish Government "reasonably concludes" it is a great success?

www.thelocal.se/27580/20100703/

This article also initially claims the Swedish law is a "success" because of less street prostitution. But then goes on to say prostitution happens just as much indoors and online...

"I don't suppose it has any evidence internet prostitution decreased either?"

No, but it hasn't increased any more than Norway and Denmark. Thus, your assertion that the reduction in street prostitution, as a result of the laws, is because prostitutes have gone underground, 'onto the internet' would be incorrect.

Obviously you wouldn't see the Swedish Laws as a success, Franz. Given the views you tirelessly air on MN. However, 80% of the Swedish population are in favour of them.

So because I think adult women should be able/permitted to make their own choices over what they do with their own bodies, I am a pimp? How very interesting.

And what a very typical response; I don't agree with you so can can silence me by claiming I must have a vested interest.

Gotta love feminism, eh?

And I think my critics could do with reading [http://www.amazon.co.uk/The-Sex-Myth-Everything-Wrong/dp/0297866397/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1357873381&sr=8-1 Dr Brooke Magnanti's book]]. But they won't, because it uses facts and shit, rather than, well, shite. And supposition. And does not support the RadFem position.

Many apolgies, the link is here... www.amazon.co.uk/The-Sex-Myth-Everything-Wrong/dp/0297866397/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1357873381&sr=8-1

OldLady - you're right. I won't be buying Brooke's book. I am familiar with her stance on prostitution though...If you want to believe what Brooke writes about prostitution you are in complete denial over the prostitutes who are harmed by the sex industry. The ones who have no choice, who are drug addicted, who are abused.

I didn't claim you had a vested interest in the sex industry (although you may have, who knows?) - but plenty of people that campaign for so-called sex workers rights do. The example I gave was the IUSW that Frans linked to upthread.

And yes, I do love feminism.

I won't be reading the book either. I am not a rad, as a socialist I am concerned with all forms of economic and labour exploitation. Within the social totality we have little room to think without bias.

To think that women have agency under capitalism and patriarchy is to deny that we are oppressed and exploited. So yeah, if you don't get that and understand that, you probably aren't a feminist.

My guess is that the pro-sex work lobby are "Infected" with the individualism of neo-liberalism where it is thought that everyone has agency and therefore oppression is just something imagined within their own minds. They even claim that prostituted women are able to rise above their own experiences and think themselves into a position of social and economic power if they believe themselves to have it. All you need is a legal regulated framework to protect workers rights.

Well get this, we have that in all industries in western countries and guess what, it hasn't made a jots worth of difference to the material fact that labour is exploited. Wages have fallen, people are eating from food banks, people lose their homes, individuals have huge levels of debt, even those that are working etc..... making something legal doesn't stop exploitation.

What a shame, that people would rather cling to their prejudices than be educated. If you won't read Brooke's book because of what she did for money, how about a glance at this one? www.amazon.co.uk/Wisdom-Whores-Bureaucrats-Brothels-Business/dp/1847080766/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1357904213&sr=1-1