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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Good piece on sex work by Laurie Penny

497 replies

SolidGoldFrankensteinandmurgh · 20/12/2012 15:43

Here. She puts it a bit more elegantly than I usually do...

OP posts:
Natalie555 · 11/01/2013 11:45

OldLadyKnowsNothing ~ your name suits you.

I'm out too. This thread is getting ridiculous.

OldLadyKnowsNothing · 11/01/2013 11:55

Ridiculous, because I disagree? Okaaaaay.....

GothAnneGeddes · 11/01/2013 12:37

Thinking that prostitution is empowering and a worthwhile "service" to the (male half) doesn't strike me as educated.

Also, whatever she'd like to claim otherwise, Brooke Magnanti is a privileged outlier within prostitution, not the norm.

What she's pushing isn't education, it's appeasement of the men who think women were only put on this earth to service them.

OldLadyKnowsNothing · 11/01/2013 12:42

How can you say that, when you haven't read the book? It's not Belle de Jour I'm talking about here.

SabrinaMulhollandJjones · 11/01/2013 13:00

Minitheminx, I lean towards the left politically but I'm not a socialist. I have found your posts very interesting to read on here. I know, from reading your posts that I would like to know more about your opinions.

OldLady - it's fine to disagree, but don't claim that because we don't want to read your book recommendation on here that we are all in ignorance. We've all read Brooke's arguments before - we're not in ignorance of them. I don't claim to be that well-read on the topic - but so many of the feminist posters on MN are extremely educated and well-read.

I don't need to read Nick Griffin's book to know I don't want to join the BNP.

SabrinaMulhollandJjones · 11/01/2013 13:04

Btw - I watched Brooke being interviewed on News24 a couple of months back - it did nothing but raise my blood pressure!

OldLadyKnowsNothing · 11/01/2013 13:20

Sabrina, the book I mention by Brooke does not contain any pro-prostitution arguments, it contains yer actual facts about all sorts of sexual matters, backed up by zillions of peer-reviewed research by people who are not, and have never been, prostitutes. But if you, and/or others prefer to put prejudice politics before actual knowledge, so be it.

MiniTheMinx · 11/01/2013 14:02

Thank you SabrinaMulhollandJjones I'm reading your posts and nodding! RadFems and Marxist fems share a common heritage and more in common than Laurie Penny would like to admit Grin

I have just had a quick look at the link oldlady and a read from the book on Amazon. I would love to say more but I must go and do some work. I read a bit of the preview to The Sex Myth: Why Everything We're Told is Wrong. I think it would be fairly easy to debunk almost everything I have just read. So far the only thing I am in agreement with, is the intro into the chapter on Children but mainly because when you apply a Historical materialist analysis to this area it becomes obv why childhood is longer and why we seek to control and limit children. If anyone has read Firestone they will understand that too. Although I reserve judgement because I still think this women has an agenda beyond women's rights and no I won't put money in her pocket!

OldLadyKnowsNothing · 11/01/2013 14:04

Thank you for at least looking. :)

GothAnneGeddes · 11/01/2013 16:53

OLKN - What exactly are you wanting to prove?

That prostitution is harmless?

That it's a perfectly healthy and positive thing for men to pay for sex?

That the majority of prostitutes are happy and willing in their work?

That increased usage of prostitutes, without any stigma will be a good thing for society, particularly women?

Are these facts you think Brooke's book proves?

MiniTheMinx · 11/01/2013 17:21

I have just been listening to Brooke, here where she speaks against changes to the law.

What she says is that more women within the sex industry will come to harm because they will not be able to maintain an active and supportive dialogue with the police. She argues that women need to be able to go to the police and report.

Is there any other legal, regulated labour, in any other industry where workers would routinely be in danger, or be vulnerable to economic exploitation as well as threats to personal safety and integrity where the staff approach the police to resolve the issue?

Owl Listen carefully to what Brook is saying because she herself actually gives evidence to the fact that women are harmed in prostitution.

I have also had a another read through from that link to her book. She makes the argument that the sexualised porn culture does not harm children. Whilst I think taken in a historical context children are no more harmed than they ever were, what I would argue for is more protection for children. If you look back in history, conditions of overcrowding, lack of education, low school leaving age, early marriage, trading women between tribal groups etc, meant that children grew up very quickly and were party to greater knowledge earlier, we shouldn't accept the idea that porn culture isn't now at this time shaping our children's brains and making them vulnerable. I would draw you to the work done by Gail Dines when she interviews paedophiles and the link btw adult porn and child abuse.

Another interesting thing about Brook, she was raped, she has no contact with her father after he told her that during her childhood he had paid for over 150 prostitutes. Strange!

Franz1980 · 11/01/2013 17:56

Ah I remember watching this. Interesting how Brooke actually seems to know what she's talking about while Ms. Grant seems rather hesitant, stuttery and unsure.

What she says is that more women within the sex industry will come to harm because they will not be able to maintain an active and supportive dialogue with the police

It's a good point. At the moment most information on trafficking actually comes from prostitutes and clients themselves. If prostitution is criminalized then it's likely the police will stop receiving these tip offs.

As for Rhoda claiming it could be proven and stack up in court I doubt it. At about 2:55 in Margo McDonald says for a conviction the prostitute will need to give evidence against the client which just won't happen.

In Sweden not a single client has been sent to prison and only 2 have actually been convicted of buying sex as of July 2012 (and that's because they were dumb enough to actually admit to it).

page 38:
www.hivlawcommission.org/resources/report/FinalReport-Risks,Rights&Health-EN.pdf

The UK would be no different. If the UK criminalized sex we would prob only get about 2 convictions a decade too. Clients will know it is practically impossible to enforce and it won't be much of a detterent at all.

Franz1980 · 11/01/2013 18:05

Is there any other legal, regulated labour, in any other industry where workers would routinely be in danger, or be vulnerable to economic exploitation as well as threats to personal safety and integrity where the staff approach the police to resolve the issue?_

Plenty. Working in a pub, cornershop. Working in the police/fire/ambulance services. Working with mental health patients...

ProzacHelps · 11/01/2013 18:35

Hi. Look at it from a different perspective. I copied and pasted the following from thread I started giving insight to it all. Research & Education Website.

Sex Work - There Is No Such Thing
By XLondonCallGirl, survivor of prostitution
December 20, 2012

I've heard a few people recently referring to women who work as prostitutes, in pornography and as strippers, as sex workers. This, I have to say absolutely riles me. Why does it? I am sure some people will have not the slightest idea with what could be wrong with the term sex work. Considering that working in prostitution, pornography or as a stripper is a form of abuse, referring to it as some kind of work normalises it. It makes it okay. It sounds politically correct. But let's not fool ourselves here. This kind of "work" is abuse. It is abusive to the women and men and sometimes even children involved. To be on the receiving end of abuse, allowing abuse to happen to you, being forced to have abuse inflicted on you, is not a form of work.

When I was a call girl back in the 1990s, I don't know if anyone was using the term sex worker. Certainly, myself and the other working women I hung around with didn't use that terminology. However, we had our own words for our own denial that we were harming ourselves. We didn't call ourselves prostitutes, we called ourselves hookers, call girls and escorts. Though my friend Q would talk about her days as a streetwalker when she was originally forced into prostitution and I think of all my friends at that time, she was the one who would occasionally refer to herself as a prostitute. But then at that time, she lived in flats in the most sought after streets in London, had the best designer clothes, expensive jewellery often given to her by clients, and was taken away on luxury holidays. She had it all on the outside, like most of us did though she did have it best, but like the rest of us, she was just as messed up, damaged, hurt and confused on the inside.

We all needed to use that different vocabulary about ourselves to feed the denial that we weren't in fact prostitutes. That weren't acting out the sexual abuse we had suffered as children, thinking this time we were the ones in control, pulling the strings, having the last say. But when we were raped and beaten, that wasn't the case, and that's probably why we always just carried on working as if nothing had happened to us. Nearly every woman in that circle I knew well had told me of their childhood sexual abuse. Some of the others didn't discuss their abuse but I wouldn't be surprised if they'd suffered it too, we just weren't as close. We were used to being treated like sex objects. Some of us were called names like "whore" and "tart" and that self-fulfilling prophecy is what happened to us. We were viewed as sex objects when we were young, so we learned to treat ourselves as sex objects. We saw ourselves as sex objects. Sex is what men wanted from us, that was the commodity we traded in, so we may as well get paid for it.

I thought I was selling my soul in a telemarketing job in my very early twenties. I wasn't selling anything illegal, it was a business to business sales role, but because of my childhood abuse I came to a conclusion that a normal woman wouldn't arrive at: that it would be better to have sex for money, work less hours and earn more money. As simple as that. I didn't see anything wrong with women who worked in prostitution and I still don't see anything wrong with them. I feel a deep sense of sadness for them now just like I feel a deep sense of sadness for myself for putting myself through the ordeal for a few years and that I still pay a price for it now emotionally, psychologically, mentally, in relationships with men as well as friends, I have trust issues, the list goes on - that can be another post for another day.

Sex is not a kind of work, stripping is not a kind of work and neither is pornography. They are kinds of abuse. It would be great if society could see it for what it is and stop using the term sex work, which they see is politically correct. Call it what it is - prostitution, stripping, pornography, but separate the woman from what she does. She is not what she does. She is still a woman. So don't call her a prostitute, a stripper, a pornstar/actress. Instead, call her a woman who is in prostitution, a woman who is in stripping, a woman who is in pornography. Don't let her label become who she is and define her. She is a woman no more or less special than any other. She is deserving of the same respect as any other woman.

For women in prostitution, pornography and stripping and who want to call themselves sex workers that is their choice. Just like it was my choice and my friends' choice to use terminology that made it seem okay to us - our words being hookers, escorts and call girls. I am not here to tell those women what to call what they do, but I am asking society not to feed into that denial, not to let that denial spread and normalise abuse against women by calling it work.

Posted by Melissa Farley at 8:55

SabrinaMulhollandJjones · 11/01/2013 18:47

Thanks Prozac, that pretty much sums up my opinion.

As there's been a few book recommendations on this thread - here's one of Melissa Farley's.

Franz, you are wrong about the number of convictions in Sweden - there were 85 convictions in 2006 alone.

ProzacHelps · 11/01/2013 19:01

Sabrina - sums up my opinion too. That is good book recommendation. What a powerful front cover. The picture says it all! Do go onto the thread I started to read more from The Survivor'sView. The thread is called Prostitution Research & Education.

MiniTheMinx · 11/01/2013 19:24

Franz, that is lame. Dp works in medium secure in mental health and in 8 years the police have been called twice for riots, and a few times for absconders. Other than court (for those sectioned for crime) he has virtually no contact with the police.

He works with women who have a diagnosis of BPD and many of them have a history of abuse and having worked in prostitution, along with DV and drugs/alcohol and having had their own children taken into care. I don't know what the percentage is of women who worked in prostitution but its a significant factor for some of the women he works with.

Thank you Prozac I think calling it sex work is a ploy to hide and minimise the realities.

Franz1980 · 11/01/2013 19:42

I wasn't trying to imply sex workers (or should I be calling them "prostituted women"?) need to call the police on a regular basis and I don't think Brooke was implying that either. But the point is the relationship between sex workers (and their clients) and the police should remain open just in case they did want to report a crime committed against themselves or give info about suspected trafficking even if it was only twice a decade.

Franz1980 · 11/01/2013 19:47

I think calling it sex work is a ploy to hide and minimise the realities.

Or maybe it's to try and acknowledge the fact they are working for wages just like anyone else and deserve respect just like anyone else and to lower stigma? One of my links above mentioned increased stigma means sex workers in Sweden end up lying to their family and friends and landlord about what they do.

Sex workers in Sweden legally aren't allowed to rent a place to live. And this law is supposed to be protecting them?

MiniTheMinx · 11/01/2013 19:53

Lets, take Brooks position here and make all facets of the sale of and purchase of sex completely legal. Including brothel keeping and controlling/hiring and contracting. OK.

Now, would the exploited women (or worker if you insist) contact her A)Line manager, B)her union rep, d)MP, e) solicitor who specialises in employment law or f) the police

Who do you think she is most likely to contact if she can not agree the terms of her employment and the terms and conditions in relation to specific tasks associated with her work?

Franz1980 · 11/01/2013 20:03

She leaves.

ProzacHelps · 11/01/2013 20:14

www.prostitutionresearch.com/

MiniTheMinx · 11/01/2013 20:14

Would she not have to give notice if she was working for someone? This is after all just work like any other work isn't it???? I assume it would be better to be employed on a contract because the worker would have maternity rights, right to request flexi working, pension rights, time off for dependants and paid holidays and sickness.

Franz1980 · 12/01/2013 00:19

Nope. She can just leave.

As well all know forcing someone to have sex who does not give their consent to it would be rape.

Pushthebutton · 12/01/2013 00:52

Who's She ? The cats mother?

It wouldn't be a respectable, trusting employer/employee relationship would it.

If She decided to leave such 'employment' and get a normal 9-5 job do you not think she would be discriminated against? How would "sex work" on a CV be viewed by future potential employers?

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