Random men speaking to you

[enimmead]

I'm sure men don't randomly speak to other men in the street. Strangers. So why the hell do they feel they have to speak to random women. I don't think it's got anything to do with chatting up.

Yesterday, I saw a 20 something bloke with his mates slip in front of me on the ice. As I got out, he said "Hi love, did you see that!!!" I'm could be his mum bit older than him. Why speak to me? I just smiled but I bet he wouldn't' have said anything if I'd been male.

Just walking down the street, other side of the road bloke smiles and says "Hi love". No idea who he was.

Do blokes do this to other random blokes?

A few years ago, my neighbour who is 15 years older than me, said " You disappear when you turn sideways." Her tone of voice was was slightly sneering. I just happened to be very slim for my age and was wearing a very tight and young-looking pair of trousers. In fact I did look 20 years younger then. I just took it that she was a bit jealous. It was her tone of voice that had the intent.
Now the other day, I was crossing the road and thought I knew the old man opposite, who was shuffling along. I being middle-aged + and my eyes have a disease, I was staring at him trying to get him into focus. When I told him, he said " Oh, I thought I had struck it lucky" in a sweet way, and I laughed and it made my day.

I think it's a distraction to get bogged down in whether Enimmead "should" have felt the kid's behaviour was intrusive. She said she does; that's the end of that.

The issue she raised, however, is the one we're discussing - whether people (men in particular) feel over-entitled to cross women's personal boundaries. I'm saying yes they do, in countless tiny ways as well as the bigger ways that are covered by law. I'm saying 'everyday sexism' belittles women, putting them at an almost perpetual disadvantage.

It strikes me as a reasonable test of sexism to consider whether the same thing happens habitually between heterosexual men.

I don't know whether OP's ice story would have happened if she were a man. She, though, is in the privileged position of knowing both sides and she says it would not. I do know I wouldn't turn round to some bloke and say "Hey, darling, did you see that?" Actually - if I had done, what would your thoughts be?

Yeah, Digerd, I do everyday flirting. (I've toned it down due to my age, but fully intend to turn it back on full beam when I'm properly old!) I have no idea why posters are getting the impression I'm some sort of antisocial sourpuss.

I do cheery, everyday flirting.
I do not:
Touch people I don't know except on the arms (or for a practical reason, obv.)
Make personal remarks except to compliment a choice of accessory or something.
Allude to sex unless it's the topic of discussion.
Single people out for their physical characteristics.
Crowd people out, physically or verbally.

There are very many men who do all the above to women but not to other men.

I am guilty of over-using endearments. Most of my circle(s) do it but, since relocating, I've noticed it makes others edgy so I avoid it round here. Same with social kissing.

Garlic
Ditto with me on the Don't List. I have never been into social kissing - but like to kiss and cuddle my little dogs. Never called someone love, but like it when it's said to me.

if I had done, what would your thoughts be?

I actually said up thread Garlic that I had a young girl not only make a comment to me when passing but she also gently pinched me. I don't want to give the full details because I told a few people about it at the time and don't want to be outed if they are a forum user.
In actual fact I was a lot less bothered by it than I would have expected. She didn't do it in a way that was threatening at all and wasn't trying to belittle me. Which is really what I meant in an earlier post about taking someone's intentions into account.

I'm showing my age by calling her a young girl. She was 17-19.

What I do hate from my male neighbour, my brother, and cowboy builders, is the putting you down as they know better than you. Any criticism/worry is all in a woman's mind/imagination, or we are moaning minnies. But we are 90% right or as another older woman said 99.9% right !! That phrase " Now you listen to me", or " Don't worry about it, I know what I am doing". And "Trust me". How I have had to learn, since I lost my gorgeous, kind and trustworthy DH 16 years ago. He was a real gentleman < sigh>

YY to your 17:33 post, garlic.

I was reminded of this thread yesterday.

I'm in my late 30s now and usually have a couple of small children in tow, so my degree of 'invisibility' to the pass-remarkable sorts of men who comment, leer, whistle, or worse has gone down considerably over the years.

Yesterday I biked into town, it was a beautiful day - very warm, even first thing in the morning. I was wearing bike shirts and a fitted t-shirt. I was unencumbered by children.

The contrast from the usual going about my day was unbelievably stark. At first I was cheered by the nice interactions that a beautiful summer's day brings out in people, feeling the bonhomie of the world and enjoying being out in it without kids.

But it wasn't long before I was suddenly having all sorts of old, familiar feelings of anxiety. The sorts of feelings I'd pretty much forgotten about, but as I recalled, used to make up a notable part of my life when I was younger, and out and about.

That feeling when you spot 3 or more men in, say, hi-vis jackets in the distance - in your path, that you know you have to walk past. They stop what they're doing, position themselves for a better view - and if you're !lucky' that's all they do - give you a group appreciative look as you walk past. If not so 'lucky' you'll get a few comments as well. You have to smile and acknowledge them and play along, because if you don't, as a lone women in ratio to multiple men, the potential situation is even more anxiety-causing than it already was.

Just for the record, I'm not an anxious type. at the thought. I'm confident, not shy in social situations, and at ease with my place in the world. But these interactions are - unpleasant, to say the least.

They cause me to feel uneasy and just-want-to-get-it-over-with - and I'm so glad that for the most part, they're over with in my life. Yet today was such an eye-opener to how much less frequently it happens to me now, and how much more I just used to have to put up with it when I was younger.

Each interaction on its own is utterly insignificant. Absolutely insignificant from the point of view of the individual men. But when combined with several other happenings, it combines to make an annoying, unpleasant, unwelcome overall picture. It's virtually impossible to explain this to people (most - there, I said 'most'! - men) who are not on the drip-drip-drip continual receiving end of it.

That situation just repeated by Somerset - is it a function of the men's IQ, their upbringing, or something else? What makes it second nature to some men and not others? Class, upbringing, education?

A consistent theme seems to be builders, manual workers, van drivers etc. If we assume these chaps did less well at school, is it a sign of poor education/low intelligence? Would you have such trepidation if you saw three middle-aged men in suits outside a bank, for instance?

"The issue she raised, however, is the one we're discussing - whether people (men in particular) feel over-entitled to cross women's personal boundaries. I'm saying yes they do, in countless tiny ways as well as the bigger ways that are covered by law. I'm saying 'everyday sexism' belittles women, putting them at an almost perpetual disadvantage."

There is no discussion about crossing personal boundaries. If it causes offence to you then it is a clear imposition.

The difficulty IMHO is the statement that some men 'feel' over entitled about it. I would bet that if you asked 100 men I very much doubt most feel it is their entitlement to touch a woman in any form. Most 'decent' men would be mortified if they thought an innocent touch caused so much offence. I would say it most likely happens unconciously or due to their personality. Some people are very tactile (my wife is one such person) and some are not.

But where does one draw the line? You mention that you only touch on the arm but that's your personal limit. I might object to being touched full stop, in which case you would have crossed my personal boundary and offended me. What about the shoulder, back or hand? We all have varying boundaries, which makes it extremely difficult.

I appreciate your main point is sexually oriented contact and in this case I would say that most would find it unacceptable. No questions asked but like others here we are not debating innapropriate behaviour. It's the subtler stuff and in this respect I think it's slightly tenuous to connect over entitlement to sexism to perpetual disadvantage.

There are many parallels between racism and sexism, both being oppression of some kind. Thus these concepts, now I've read up a little, aren't too dissimilar. I fully respect your views and am not saying you're any way wrong but I am genuinely struggling with this.

I don't mind anything friendly or polite. However, I hate comments like "Give us a smile love" or "smile! It might never happen."

Obviously, I walk around looking thoroughly miserable :)

I remember that happening to me when I was shopping in a down pour when I was 17 and a man suddenly said " Cheer up love". I was upset because I didn't want to be looking miserable and didn't think I did. - all about my image in those days. Now I don't care < so much> as nobody looks at me anyway. Did get beeped by a van this morning in the rain, face hidden under my umbrella - still thought it strange?

Talking and putting women down - belittling them- is sexism - or to put it another way- asserting their male dominence. Applies to those who feel the need to!!

I remember the first time I heard the phrase 'Cheer up, it might never happen.' A girl said it to me in 6th form at school. That was about 30 years ago, and I have never forgotten it, or the girl who said it. It seemed so odd then, and it still does.

There is an obligation on women to smile which is rarely imposed on men and also general studies show that people of both genders tend to laugh at the jokes of those above him - if Prince Charles told a joke and no one about him laughed even though it weren't funny that would not be likely to happen.

The question for women in general is do you want to use that tool - charm , smiling, flirting, flattery or do you want to opt out of it. You can live a life including that or without it, both perfectly well.

It all depends on how she said it - her tone of voice and facial expression. With concern or otherwise. I remember it as the man trying to cheer me up as I looked so miserable .

Wow, I'm agreeing with Xenia on this thread!

Social smiling is the human equivalent of a dog rolling over to expose its belly to a more powerful dog.

I'm aware I smile ingratiatingly too much when nervous- it's a habit I'm trying to kick.

If you watch videos or pay for training on how to show your power there are all kinds of things you can do whatever your gender from taking up space in the room, not deferring to others, not touching your hair, not smiling all the time etc. It is certainly something you can be trained in if you want to bother.

Smiling at people is ingratiating yourself, like a dog rolling over in submission?
I smile at people if they smile at me as a matter of courtesy. It would be rude not to. male or female.

Namechangeguy boundaries aren't set in stone are they.

I had a builder in my house the other day. A friend of a friend. He was talking to me about some potential work and 3 times he touched me on the arm.

At work, if my boss or colleagues touch me on the arm, I don't mind - don't even notice probably, it's not sexual, it's not threatening, it's ... nothing really, just someone touching me. Not even worth noticing. In a supermarket, someone might touch my back while guiding me towards an aisle and I prob wouldn't mind.

Sth about this guy creeped me out though. Something to do with him being in my house alone with me and not knowing me (first time we'd ever chatted) and overstepping those physical boundaries. He may just be tactile, but so what? The fact that I didn't respond positively the first time, should have stopped him the second time but the fact that he went on to do it the third time, made me decide that there's no way I'm hiring him or having him in my house ever again. I doubt if he'd have touched a man in that way, however tactile he may be.

And yet at work, if someone touched me four times, I wouldn't notice, much less be offended.

So my boundaries differ according to the person, context and situation I'm in. And how tactile someone is, how friendly, how pushy etc., in a normal person also differ according to their context.

The context with men and women, is that men as a group have power over women as a group. The power to rape and call it consensual sex and usually be believed, the power to operate within social norms which have been written and defined by men, the power to take for granted that their perception of an event, is the correct one because that's what movies, TV, books, shows etc. tell us all.

i do talk to random women in the street, on the bus etc,

namech, we don't make it up. I showed a plumber a couple of years ago whilst I was up a ladder where the tank was and for some reason he had to put both hands on my sides.

I agree that builders etc are more blatant but it happens in offices with men earning £200k - £1m a year. I had an ex MP at the end of a business meeting ask me if I wanted sex. Where he thought we were going to do it considering my son was in the house and I would not fancy him in a month of Sundays I do not know.

Builders are subject to employment policies these days such as not to wool whistle on sites and they are much better than they were. Most employees have sex harrassment guidelines at work. It is much better than it used to be but it has certainly not disappeared. In a sense the more women put up with it the more men think it's fine or don't even notice that what they've done is wrong or objectionable.

Perhaps all women on this thread tomorrow should do two tasks - if they meet a man who isn't smiling day "give us a smile" and if they see a man who looks fit whistle at him... I suspect most of us would not really want to. If someone is looking you and down in that way you can certainly reciprocate and look them up and down as if they are fresh male meat you have the right to take I suppose although that might not be safe.

Xenia, you have posted before on MN that you use flattery.

Actually , thinking about it, it could have been flirting.