Random men speaking to you

[enimmead]

I'm sure men don't randomly speak to other men in the street. Strangers. So why the hell do they feel they have to speak to random women. I don't think it's got anything to do with chatting up.

Yesterday, I saw a 20 something bloke with his mates slip in front of me on the ice. As I got out, he said "Hi love, did you see that!!!" I'm could be his mum bit older than him. Why speak to me? I just smiled but I bet he wouldn't' have said anything if I'd been male.

Just walking down the street, other side of the road bloke smiles and says "Hi love". No idea who he was.

Do blokes do this to other random blokes?

I think a key difference is whether someone is talking to you or at you. And whether they are paying any attention to your response at all.

There were lots of points. clarifications, discussions, exploration of the issues - just coming in at the end with a simple statement is a bit like not listening to a debate, missing exactly what I and others were saying and then making a contribution without having heard what has been said.

Your whole crux, Enimead, seems to be that you were treated differently because you are a woman. That may be true. However, those of us are struggling with your predicament cannot see why or how you reached this conclusion. You have certainty, but I cannot see why.

And I have read it all.

OK. Fair enough, clearly picked the wrong thread. I'll be off.

kim147 made about 25 posts all saying the same thing, all of which were completely ignored. And what she said was that she has been a man, and she has been a woman, and that as a woman she is treated differently.

Because in my male days, I know no man would have spoken to me like that. And ignored me usually as I walked down the street.

Larry - I think using "men" or "the patriarchy" to signify some men is a bit disingenuous. It is a bit like a man beginning a sentence "women"

You want me to say "some patriarchies"? Really?

Mmm...apologies Kim, perhaps I should have said "she has been a man and she is now a woman". I didn't want to imply that nowadays you are, I don't know, an octopus or something.....

Seriously, you can't get better evidence than TWO people having seen it from both genders' pov. I referred to magazines & TV shows who cross-dress a man, which also invariably find the same problem, and was likewise ignored.

But, hey, we really should pay more attention to men telling us how wrong we are about what happens when you're a woman [sigh]

... A quick nudge to our male contributors: Men telling women how wrong they are about experiences of being a woman is a shining example of 'male privilege'.

and

Well, after 18 days and 19 pages, a rather important fact. Amazing. Is this what is known as drip feeding?

Maybe I didn't really want to let that fact out.

OK. Fair enough, clearly picked the wrong thread. I'll be off.

I doubt that anybody would expect you to read every post in every thread that you contribute to "AvonCallingBarksdale". Your contribution is just as valued in this thread as any other thread.

Garlic

IMHO you have been very sucessfull in explaining the sheer, everyday normality of men's boundary-crashing behaviours ver well and I apologise if I've not acknowledged that in my replies.

I do not think you are anti social so have not judged you at all. If anything you have been more than social/courteous in helping me (a total stranger) understand a bit more about an unknown subject. My questions haven't been aimed at you directly but more theoretically (kind of devils advocate if you like) so apologies again if it has appeared that I've been digging at your personal judgement.

As with NCG though it is the subtler stuff that I'm grappling with and how this fits in with the concept of privilege.

... A quick nudge to our male contributors: Men telling women how wrong they are about experiences of being a woman is a shining example of 'male privilege'.

There are as many women who disagree as well. Why is it that many women who do not usually contribute to the feminism forums say that you are not describing their lives. I interact with women from all walks of life in my job and socialise with female friends and workmates and I have never known one to mention the tedious frequency that men make sexist approaches to them while they are just going about their business.

Again though i am highlighting the difference between normal interactions and more sexist remarks etc.
To me the main difference isn't so much what you say, it is the intent. In other words whether the interaction is to make the other person feel better or worse.

But it is absolutely crucial to the conversation we are having. It is still your personal experience, but you have seen it from both perspectives and you have a valid comparison.

Ah, you've never known one to mention it? Speaking from my own experience, only feminists mention it. And women of my age, who often remark on the reduction in daily harassment (some miss it, most welcome the freedom). And women talking amongst themselves, who tend only to mention it when some bloke's been a particular wazzock.

I have gone into work, more than once, after being molested or wanked over or attacked on the Tube, and not mentioned it. That's leaving out the fifty to a hundred minor infractions during a normal day in those years!

Would you go round advertising that you were vulnerable, scared, or "haven't got a sense of humour"? Well, maybe you would but I didn't and neither did my friends & colleagues.

I'm unclear about your gender, inde. If you're female, does this crap really never happen to you?

... I did mean to mention, in my last post, that it's so very commonplace it barely seems worth mentioning except when particularly bad. You wouldn't mention it like you wouldn't mention the three-year-old potholes in your road, the way the lift door sticks and has always stuck, the damp weather, etc.

I am male garlicbaubles. I'm sorry if I hadn't made that clear. I usually do. I'm sorry about the swine who mistreat you on the tube etc. If this thread were about that though I would be just as disgusted as everyone else. I think there is a large difference between that and smiles and saying hello or even young males messing about who didn't seem to want to cause offence.

It's not always about intent, inde. When I were a lass, people used to shout "Hey, Nigger!" at black men to get their attention. They used to ask black women if it was true that niggers were more 'well endowed' than white men. They'd go up to mixed-race children to pinch their skin, squash their noses and tease out their curls. When it was cold, they'd say to black people how it must be difficult for them, coming from Africa (even when they'd been born on the same Birmingham street.) They would say things like "You're well spoken for a black." They'd walk behind big mammas, making jokes about their bums. And more. Much, much more.

Do you feel okay about all that? It was done in good humour, really it was.

enimmead

On page 13:

^I see the ice thing is annoying some people so I'll explain. He was with 3 mates. He slipped over. I was in my car. He'd had a laugh with his mates about it. A few minutes later I got out.

"Alright love, did you see me slip?".

I just felt uncomfortable with 4 young blokes in front of me and suddenly being engaged in conversation. I don't need to justify it. I just did. So I smiled and said "Oh yes" and got on with my business.

But my point is - would he have said it to a bloke? ^

and above:

Because in my male days, I know no man would have spoken to me like that. And ignored me usually as I walked down the street.

[facepalm]
I'm at a loss for words
[/facepalm]

But ultimately, whilst valid I think your experience (like mine as an ethnic minority) is too small a sample size to draw any firm conclusions.

Presumably this is why you've had to ask the question on a public forum i.e. to confirm your beliefs.

However, it is clear to me after reading most of this thread now, that you are still unwilling to see any other side. Thus it would have been more appropriate to make a statement than pose a question.

IMHO the answer is simple. Yes and No.

I was talking more about normal interactions between strangers garlicbaubles. The examples you give are not normal interactions and the person making them would have to be thick to think they were. I admit though I hadn't thought that post very well and there is more to it than intent. Although I would say a persons motivation for speaking to the other person should be taken into account. I would imagine for example that it is possible for a man to flirt with a woman purely to make her feel good about herself. When I interact with strangers I always hope that leave them feeling happier.

This is just mad. Which examples are not normal interactions, inde? The racist examples I gave were very normal indeed at the time. I didn't mention the racist assaults, graffiti and other crimes which were all to frequent, because I was trying to illustrate "benevolent" bigotry in a way you might comprehend. The assaults & graffiti would be equivalents of the assaults I (and most other regular woman commuters) suffered on the Tube and mentioned above.
Let's carry on with equivalents, shall we?

Shouting "Hey, Nigger!" - Shouting "Hey, Blondie!" or "Oi, Sexy!"
Before you pronounce that too trivial to mention, let me ask how often strangers call at you by some physical characteristic of yours. When did it last happen to you? What did they yell, and how did you respond?

Asking whether it was true that niggers were more 'well endowed - Making sexual remarks, sleazy hints, etc. Telling women they have amazing breasts or that skirt shows their arse off really well.
Do you know what it's like to be treated as if your main point of interest is whether you're fuckable? And for people to discuss this in front of you - or with you - as though they assume you accept this point of view?

prodding mixed-race children - Leaving aside the way people feel entitled to handle pregnant women or their children, criticise their parenting, etc ... Men prod women all the time. I doubt if a day went by when I wasn't handled by at least a few men I didn't know. I've gritted my teeth when they 'guided' me through a doorway by the small of my back or my waist; when they 'owned' me by putting an arm round my shoulders as someone else approached; when they patted my bum, hand or head.
Before you trivialise this - how many of the above did you do to another man this week, and how many were done to you by strangers of either sex?

Talking about coming from Africa, when they were born in the same street - Sociologists call this 'othering': making out the 'other' is more different from the speaker than they really are. It's a bit of a minefield in gender politics, as women clearly are different from men - but it happens when, for example, people assume women are better at cookery than men and worse at driving, or women talk a lot more.

Making jokes about their bums. - Don't need to equate that one!

The perpetrators of these small indignities; this 'othering'; mean no harm but they do it, all the same.

Perhaps I am explaining myself badly. I meant that nobody would see those examples as anything other than insulting. What we are discussing in this thread ranges from minor things like smiling at a health professional to saying "hello love" or the op's example of youths saying "did you see that love".
Not quite in the same league as the examples you are giving which I would hope would get unanimous condemnation from forum users.