pole dancing for fitness

[hairyqueenofscots]

in my work i work with very highly qualified academics, i am support staff. they have all recently started these classes and burlesque. I have recently got very interested in the feminism on MN. I am saddened these woman are doing this ,they have everything going for them! Am i wrong? be gentle i am a learner :)

Long thread, but .... I've never seen a male footballer, or rugby player, say 'yes, I do football, but not in a sexy way!'.

Yet this whole debate, even from people who think pole dancing is A-ok, is full of people saying 'oh, yes, I do it - but it's not sexy!'

Surely the fact you have to deny that, and distance yourself from pole-dancing-as-sex, kinda proves the point that this is the default expectation? That it is usually done for its value as sex work.

IMO it feeds into yet more of that stupid idea that women really secretly enjoy being treated as sex objects.

BuddyTheChristmasElf

I think it goes like this.

Pole fitness classes becomes a social norm with classes everywhere. Men ( and some women ) think 'oh pole dancing is an acceptable activity as it's going on down the local leisure centre and my sister is doing it, therefore there's no harm in me patronizing my local club because it's now socially acceptable'

I'd also add that from what I understand the industry is not filled with trafficked women. There are doubtless some, but I don't think it's the norm.

"Because if you don't think too hard about it, 'There are loads of women pole dancing for fun so the women I watch humping a pole must be happy to be there too. If it was exploitation, why would so many women do it for exercise?"

Loads of women get naked to get dressed or in the shower or sleep naked, noone says that = being happy to be paid to get naked for men. The men who make excuses for it will find excuses regardless

No I wouldn't be happy for my DH to go to a strip club that included pole dancing, he isn't impressed by friends/colleagues who do! I would be happy for him to go to a pole competition or to see circ du soleil or a proper pole fitness demonstration though

so no I'm still not seeing how I am enabling the sex industry by going to a class

LRD that makes no sense because it is relevant to say that in the context of that thread

in other contexts people don't say "I do pole fit but not in a sexy way" they just say "I do pole fit and have guns of steel now" etc

BuddyTheChristmasElf

How would you feel if you visited a nursery class and they were teaching the children how to pole dance ?

its fairly dangerous, so no not appropriate for a nursery class exercise session, neither is kettle bells! or weight lifting! what does that prove about kettle bells and weight lifting huh?

so this is how the thread goes
"I do pole class, its great for fitness"
"its about sex"
"my class isn't sexy"
"AHA! you have to say it's not sexy, therefore you are proving it is about sex"

You're avoiding the question and being obtuse.

LRDtheFeministDragon
IMO it feeds into yet more of that stupid idea that women really secretly enjoy being treated as sex objects.

Mmm.
I strongly suspect that some people - of either gender, not to be hetero-normative - enjoy being treated as sex objects, together with the attention it garners them.

I think that usually feeds from poor self-worth/body image issues.

buddy, that is precisely my point.

Why do people feel the need to explain they pole dance, but not in a sexy way, do you think?

Would you ever have to explain to someone that you do football, but not the sexy kind? No, obviously not, because that isn't a sport that is primarily associated with sex work. Pole dancing is.

So, even if you're claiming you do the non-sexy variety of pole dancing, you are still doing something that is primarily associated with women's bodies being used for sexual grafitication. So you're still perpetuating that idea that women are basically there for men to ogle at and wank over.

If that weren't the case, no-one would need to explain they do the non-sexy kind of pole dancing.

This isn't some kind of trick answer, btw, and it's not underhand to use basic logic in an argument, so not sure why you are so shocked by it.

Thanks for that, onemore, helpful.

I don't, ok? So I don't especially enjoy that women as a class are, by default, treated as sex objects. I especially don't enjoy it when men explain patiently that it's really to do with some of us being a bit damaged and enjoying it, or when women explain it's really their choice they're going to perpetuate that stereotype.

"Why do people feel the need to explain they pole dance, but not in a sexy way, do you think?"
THEY DON'T!!
unless say in the context of this thread, where they are replying to people who are saying it's about being sexy!

When women chat about toning up etc in other contexts, they don't say "come to my pole class it's not sexy", they say "come to my pole class it really tones you up!"
it is only in reply to posts about it being about being sexy for men that people are saying "my class isn't sexy". Because it isn't, that is all!

GetAllTheThings
You're avoiding the question and being obtuse.

Possibly a little harsh.
Might be that the poster in question realises they way you have framed the context means that there's little else they can say, other than

"Ah, so you genuinely believe that Men ( and some women ) think 'oh pole dancing is an acceptable activity as it's going on down the local leisure centre and my sister is doing it, therefore there's no harm in me patronizing my local club because it's now socially acceptable' even though you have no actual evidence for that presumption, because otherwise you would have shown it?"

For the avoidance of doubt, I think it's all part of cross-over of sexualisation into the mainstream from a variety of places - and this one? Is clearly from "sex entertainment clubs".

Really, buddy?

You honestly believe pole dancing is primarily not associated with sex? You never notice all those adverts for 'gentlemans' clubs'?

Goodness, you are sheltered.

Honestly, you have to be being wilfully ignorant not to have understood that pole dancing, in the UK, has been associated with sex for much, much longer than it has had this niche reputation as a 'fitness' scheme.

I went to a pole class and was told to wear high heels. It was insured! The instructor was a stripper. I didn't go again.

LRDtheFeministDragon
Thanks for that, onemore, helpful.
Always glad to be of service.

You said:IMO it feeds into yet more of that stupid idea that women really secretly enjoy being treated as sex objects.

I - fairly reasonably I thought - pointed out that some women, and some men, particularly the fitness obsessed gay guys I know, enjoy the objectification.

I don't, ok? So I don't especially enjoy that women as a class are, by default, treated as sex objects.

Can't see that I suggested that was in any way a good thing.

I especially don't enjoy it when men explain patiently that it's really to do with some of us being a bit damaged and enjoying it,

nope, didn't say that either.

or when women explain it's really their choice they're going to perpetuate that stereotype

Don't know enough about choice feminism to comment.

I've just googled 'pole dancers'. Results:

Pole dancer falls hard after passionate performance - YouTube

BEST POLE DANCE MOVE EVER - YouTube (screen grab of a woman with her breasts out)

SEXY POLE DANCE GIRLS in NYC SUBWAY - YouTube

Pole dance - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

(take a moment to note wiki, normally first, is crowded out by the 'sexy' results)

Miss Pole Dance UK

Sexy Pole Dance - Video

Need I go on? Or is it now obvious that there is actually quite a strong connection between pole dancing and sex, which is why people have to deny that their pole dancing classes are sexy.

If I google 'footballers' I get results about footballers, WAGs, black and gay footballers, beer, and news results about Frank Lampard.

I spot a small difference here.

Yet another bloody example of an activity suitable for women. There is nothing in pole dancing that can't be achieved with free weights and a bit of cardio equipment but god forbid that women actually sweat and grunt in the gym. Why is it okay for me to pole dance but not okay for me to squat 80 kilos in the gym ? Why the hell do women need their fitness activities to be acceptable to men ? Which, let's face it, is what pole dancing is, but let's just keep kidding ourselves it's not about sex or only certain types of exercise being acceptable for women to do.

Yes, but as we all know the tinterweb is overrun by sex.

Try googling pole fitness then, as many of us have said we don't do any dancing around the pole because we're not pole dancers.... I've just glanced at it and it's all about lessons (gymbox being my top result). Even if you flick to images they're clearly pictures of people exercising, and nothing sexual at all.

And of course you can sweat in the gym.

It's just that I don't find this particularly challenging or enjoyable. That's nothing to do with anyone else or their opinions of me, but because I find it BORING.

Exercising on a pole is very different, there are moves I've felt I'll never be able to master and I've practiced for weeks and weeks to be able to do it. Frankly I find it challenging in a way lifting a weight will never be.

Oh and I do love lots of other exercise too. But I like variety. Hence I do pole fitness amongst other things.

Why is it okay for me to pole dance but not okay for me to squat 80 kilos in the gym ?

Well surely you can do whatever you want, no ? I've never been to a gym but I'd be amazed if a woman was barred from any activity they wished to pursue.

No, it's not okay. Very few women work with free weights because they tend to be in a section that is deemed to be the men's section. They don't want to grunt or sweat because it's not feminine. They don't want to build muscle because it's not feminine. They're intimidated. Men insist on helping me rack my weights because they think I'm fragile. They don't eye me up because I'm not in sexy gym kit but think nothing of ogling the women bouncing around on the treadmill.

With the exception of spin classes, every other class seems to be attended on gender lines despite being suitable for all.

Women tend to stick to group fitness or lighter exercise because it's more socially acceptable. It's not about it being banned, it's about what is deemed socially acceptable and the impact this has on women. Pole dancing is acceptable because of all the connotations.

One of the most powerful things as a woman is to have a strong healthy body - lifting weights has helped me to see my body for what it is, a tool to live my life, not as something to hide away in shame or to display for someone else's gratification.

I grunt and sweat on the rowing machine, and on the pole. I sweat A LOT on my 24 mile daily cycle commute to work. I don't care what other people think, and it doesn't stop me making noises - or sweating

I'm glad that you're not bothered but a lot of women are.

I don't see the sudden acceptance of pole dancing as doing anything to help in achieving equality. It reminds me of the porn argument in as much as I used to think that it was very liberal of me to tolerate a partner's porn use and felt obligated to actually watch it or encourage it. When you start to see it for what it actually is, you realise it's not liberal at all, it really is about social conditioning. I remain far from convinced that pole dancing is anything different. Maybe if there genuinely was equality, I'd be more comfortable with it but who knows ?

I've seen plenty of women sweating and grunting playing sport and exercising. I wouldn't have much sympathy with someone who avoided an activity they wanted to try for fear of what men might think of them.

I have sympathy for anyone in that position.

It's easy to tell someone not to be bothered but when they've been subjected to a lifetime of inequality and social conditioning, it isn't that easy to go against it. Much easier to go with the pack and not stand out. I almost wish I could go back in time instead of getting annoyed and angry with this stuff but I can't and I can see that by not questioning the smaller issues, it becomes more difficult to confront the larger issues. Want to play on a pole ? Fine, doesn't directly bother me but to have young girls believing that it's okay and to not understand all the connotations that go with it, bothers me.