pole dancing for fitness

[hairyqueenofscots]

in my work i work with very highly qualified academics, i am support staff. they have all recently started these classes and burlesque. I have recently got very interested in the feminism on MN. I am saddened these woman are doing this ,they have everything going for them! Am i wrong? be gentle i am a learner :)

I don't find it hard, Alan, and I am a bundle of contradictions

Have courage of your own convictions !

I suppose one question is : would people feel comfortable with their young daughters doing pole fitness classes in junior school gym class.

I wouldn't.

I can predict the answer to that, poster by individual poster

Did someone upthread really say that they hadn't noticed the pole in "sexy" ploe-dancing is a giant phallus? Really?? I think if you are so dim blinkered that you haven't noticed that rather obvious fact, then you ought to question some of the other things you may not have noticed - like all sorts of aspects of this "sport" (the photo-shoots, the wiggly sexy warmup, the high heels, the not doing it in font of men, the doing it privately for my husband and so on and so on.....) implying that it may be about something other than fitness.

AnyFucker - I am with you wholeheartedly on this one. I have actually given up arguing the toss because I just pity women who just cannot face up to the huge lie that they are convincing themselves to accept. Yes, pity, mingled with a vague touch of contempt.

rosa - I'm not sure that calling people dim is particularly necessary.

We are, after all, allowed our own opinion, and to make our own choices.

There was a very pertinent question asked on here this morning, which seems to have got lost amongst the name-calling;

'I like the concept that choice can't be free because of the patriarchy... so who decides when choice can be free - and how will we know?'

Does anyone know?

Do you remember that moment, when you?re little, and whining to your parent about the umpteenth product on a TV advert that you want? And they say, ?Sweetie, you know they?re just trying to make you want it so that we?ll have to buy it for you?? And then you realise exactly how they?re trying to manipulate you, and you hate it. And every time for the rest of your life when an advert may entice you, you might re-examine that thought. You get a little stronger. A little more resistant.

This is what patriarchy does. It tries to manipulate us into thinking we?re worthless in order to sell us shit we don?t need, or to go on crappy and unnecessary diets or to generally remind us that we should sit down and shut up. But as long as we force ourselves to keep examining and questioning it, it will lose a little more power. We?ll get a little stronger. A little more resistant. And eventually, together, we might even take the bugger out.

Extract taken from this blog

I have pole danced for fun, exercise, confidence for 2 years now. I do not wear anything to dance in that i wouldn't wear in a gym in fact some of my classes have been within a gym, its not sleazy in any way shape or form, i have performed at competition level, again, not in a sleazy way at all and most of the audience were women not men, I think its a shame that in this day and age it still gets frowned upon...i don't see salsa classes getting slated with a woman grinding on the males leg, or the male very seductively stroking his hand from the base of a woman's throat down between her breasts to her navel.. .pole fitness helps with posture core strength, body tone fat burning, need i go on, pole fitness is not about getting up on a stage in a club and having money put into our pants its a fun way to keep fit and hey if it makes us with our post baby bodies feel a little sexier then so what! My daughter does some fantastic holds on a pole that her gym teacher found amazing.

poleprincess

I'm not interested in telling anyone not to do pole classes. But I'd like people to be aware of the political context they exist in and what the cumulative effect of women choosing to do them is.

Pole classes are being singled out here a) because the way they are marketed is gendered - they are overwhelmingly marketed to women (why is that if they are just a really great way to get fit? surely everyone should be doing it?), which isn't the case for, say, salsa; b) because of the blatant hypocrisy of the denial that there's anything sexual about pole classes (you yourself say that it makes you feel "sexier", and imply that it's somehow different if men watch competition). Salsa is never marketed purely as a fitness thing - the sensuousness of it is always part of its image; c) because pole is (suspiciously) closely related in form to a sex industry form of entertainment which overwhelmingly exploits women's bodies for men's consumption.

How many women who do pole cross over into gymnastics proper? Not many I imagine. And why is that, if all the skills and benefits of pole are the same as for something like parallel bars? Is it less acceptable to do a form of sport that doesn't exist for men's titillation?

"How many women who do pole cross over into gymnastics proper? Not many I imagine"

actually all of the advanced pole people I know crossed over at least a little bit into arial silks and arial hoop and other circus acrobatics

rosabud, I promise you, if you wore heels to a beginners pole class you would regret it, BIG TIME! anyone who chooses to incorporate heels need to be pretty proficient so as not to impail themselves!

our warm up was jogging, jacks and push ups, I guess some people find that sexy?

Is there any other type of fitness class where people post fb pictures though? Zumba? Step? Spinning? Yoga?
Yes! running! am I the only one who gets lots of maps of people's latest run on their news feed! I guess they're proud, as someone who mastered a really hard pole move. I have pics of myself doing go ape etc type stuff on facebook too, and scuba diving, and horse riding...

The only people who have ever told me the things you are talking about have been women. Mainly teenage girls magazines admittedly, and I thought I had moved away from that clap trap whinging long ago, but every time I venture into the feminism threads here are the same damaging bullying lines of thought. Be like us or you're a victim (or causing others to be victims). Heaven forbid women should have their own minds and make them up. If they do that they're giving in to the patriarchy. But wait, I just think that because I'm middle class - if I knew any poor people I'd realise how victimised they were. Of course I've never met a poor person, and as I've never known what it is to go without money for essentials I can't properly understand how they are forced into prostitution/drugs/the child sex trade.

The thing I guess that upsets me a little and why I persist in coming back to post although I know I'll be beaten down, is some of the posts from the feminist side smack a little to me of 'she was asking for that' - I am thinking of the 'if you pole dance you give the wrong impression' lines. What impression? And why does it matter? Surely in a modern civilised society we try not to make snap judgements and assumptions about people from the way they are dressed or are dancing?

I'm sorry to have shocked and offended. It's just my mind boggles at... pretty much everything I read on here. I might flounce... maybe... hmm maybe better just go back to my

Can you point out which posts specifically have 'she was asking for that' overtones Niggle ? Saying pole fitness normalizes pole dancing/stripping isn't the same thing at all

I feel I need to point out that a patriarchal society is not populated only by men. I neglected to do that for the same reason I neglected to point out that a pole is simply a big shiny phallic symbol.

ie. it's as plain as the nose on your face

the way they are marketed is gendered - they are overwhelmingly marketed to women (why is that if they are just a really great way to get fit? surely everyone should be doing it?)

Equestrian equipment is also 'overwhelmingly marketed to women'. The yoga and Pilates classes i used to attend were overwhelimingly populated by women, and the (excellent) instructor's (less excellent) jokes were very 'gendered' (in a toe-curlingly cliched way). It was still great exercise and a lot of fun.

I do believe that the ways football/cricket/rugby/Formula 1 are 'marketed' tend to be gendered too. Does that therefore mean to you that men shouldn't be playing these sports?

the blatant hypocrisy of the denial that there's anything sexual about pole classes
Well... maybe it depends what pole classes you attend. The ones I know of are no more or less 'sexual' than any other form of sport.

because pole is (suspiciously) closely related in form to a sex industry form of entertainment which overwhelmingly exploits women's bodies for men's consumption

Right. Pole dancing is traditionally associated with the sex industry, I think we can all agree on that?

Capoeira was developed by slaves in chains. Does that mean that it shouldn't be practiced? (Or that if you practice Capoeira and are from a Caribbean background you're somehow unwittingly celebrating slavery? I don't fucking think so. Maybe you do.)

Dressage was originally a military discipline, designed so that riders could kill people from horseback. Should it therefore be censored/abandoned because of that?

And how about the history of boxing/pugilism? Do you also think that these are 'victims'' activities and those who are involved in them don't know their own minds or are somehow contributing to the degradation of others?

If you enjoy gymnastics (or if you'd like to and would like to try something similar in a fun, relaxed atmosphere), you might well enjoy pole dancing. (Oh, and no qualified, insured instructor would allow you to wear heels as a beginner. Possibly not ever.)

I'd also like to add that I think generally people feel better about their bodies and themselves if they're physically fit and active. I don't really care whether people get fit through fell running, aerobics (very 80s that - sexualised by Olivia Newton John, so should that go down the dunny too?), circuit training or dancing (pole dancing, salsa, belly dancing, street dancing, ballet - love 'em all). If people want to add a few tassles and have a laugh with that, let 'em.

'I like the concept that choice can't be free because of the patriarchy... so who decides when choice can be free - and how will we know?'

Well said, summerflower. Niggle, don't flounce off because you feel that feminists don't agree with you and are trying to victimise you. We are not turning you into a victim if you like pole-dancing but we are saying that all of us may be being part of a discrimanatory system that is so ingrained in us that we find it difficult to see or accept. Feminism is about looking at society from a completely different angle to the one we are all brought up in so, of course, many of the things it espouses are going to be things that we haven't seen or thought of before. If you don't won't to see it from that angle then fine, flounce off, but don't come onto a feminist discussion space and get cross because people are seeing things from a feminist point of view.

summerflower
I may be stating the obvious here, so forgive me, but isn't the point that 'choice' takes place within a given social and cultural context? So, you make a choice, but you don't make the choice in a context or in the conditions which you choose?

So while the patriarchy exists, it will not be possible for women (and men) to make a genuinely free choice because they are making it within a patriarchal context.

So the next stage is... how do you move on from the patriarchy?

... and short of armed revolution, I see no way of bringing the vested interests to the table to discuss this... and they have better weapons, more training - and are presumably more ruthless?

where women (young women in particular) are expected to meet increasingly narrow standards/ideals of beauty and 'sexiness' (shaped in part by the proliferation of pornography).

Not sure I agree with that ( but happy to be put right ) . Surely the standards and ideals of what constitutes beauty and sexiness are wider today than, say, the closeted 50's ?

"Can you point out which posts specifically have 'she was asking for that' overtones Niggle ? Saying pole fitness normalizes pole dancing/stripping isn't the same thing at all"

the whole thread! it's basically saying that women who do pole fitness are responsible for the appetite of certain men for damaged women to do things for them which they wouldn't if they had other options/hadn't had their passports confiscated etc etc. NOT that some men prefer damaged women they have control over and can buy, and it is because of that, not because of the women that choose to do a pole fitness class amongst other women in a gym, that the sex industry exists as it does.

Just as I don't see the comparison with paying financially into the cocaine buisness, I don't see how mummy telling dad that he needs to make sure he's home on time on wednesday evening because she's got her class to go to will turn my son into one of those men who prefer buying damaged women over spending mutually enjoyable time with healthy women? I care very much about my health and my safety and with young babies, pole is the best option becaue one class a week works as well as 3 other classes/gym sessions a week so I can fit it in well and get my strength back and feel healthy. My OH never asked me to "practice" for him in the bedroom (I showed him some of the moves we'd learnt on youtube) but he was supportive and pleased that I found something that gave me some of my strength and energy and confidence and health back that I enjoyed after being wiped out with low iron and thyroid after the baby.

I am not to blame for the men who pay extra for younger/iller/more visibly pregnant/gaunter prostitutes
Don't tell me they can't help themselves because women like me do pole fitness!

No one has said pole fitters turn men into abusers. It has been said that they enable the sex industry, again, a different thing.

how do they enable it? The men that buy women enable it, the men that confiscate their passports and threaten the women enable it, the owners of the clubs enable it

the classes are not held in strip clubs, no money or support goes to the clubs from doing a gym class

If there is a chain of events that lead from me going to the gym class, and a man paying a woman to perform for them, can any of you actually spell out the steps in that chain of events for me?

Because if you don't think too hard about it, 'There are loads of women pole dancing for fun so the women I watch humping a pole must be happy to be there too. If it was exploitation, why would so many women do it for exercise?'

And 'My dh is at a pole dancing club. It must be fine, loads of my friends pole dance and there's nothing seedy about it.'