pole dancing for fitness

[hairyqueenofscots]

in my work i work with very highly qualified academics, i am support staff. they have all recently started these classes and burlesque. I have recently got very interested in the feminism on MN. I am saddened these woman are doing this ,they have everything going for them! Am i wrong? be gentle i am a learner :)

I've never seen a male footballer, or rugby player, say 'yes, I do football, but not in a sexy way!'.

Erm, could this be because footballers and rugby players aren't generally subjected to open lechery from women and other men?

I have had to point out to some men that my primary interest in equestrianism isn't showing off my bum in jodhpurs/frotting against a saddle/watching my horse wave his willy around. Should I draw the conclusion that my involvement in equestrianism somehow supports subjugation of women? (My conclusion for the last 25 years or so has been that men making these comments are a bit twatty. That's all.)

Perhaps if I and others voiced our lustful thoughts about footballers more loudly, frequently and boorishly then footballer men would have to explain that they play 'not in a sexy way'.

Blistory

"No, it's not okay. Very few women work with free weights because they tend to be in a section that is deemed to be the men's section. They don't want to grunt or sweat because it's not feminine. They don't want to build muscle because it's not feminine"

huh? EVERY gym induction / program I've done has included some free weights, and most women who use the gym know the way to tone rather bulk (i.e. lower weights more times Vs higher weights with less reps)

The only difference that I see at the gym is that men stay a long time in the weight section and women alternate between aerobic machines and weight section and spend less time there

"There is nothing in pole dancing that can't be achieved with free weights and a bit of cardio equipment but god forbid that women actually sweat and grunt in the gym"
Because I've done both and pole classes work a lot faster with less sessions a week and sometimes I can't fit in that many gym sessions ! (but 30 day shred is a good contender for pole results, the only thing I've tried that comes close, I use my weights for that! )

re googling, there is a difference between googling pole fitness or pole acrobatics and pole dancing, that's just biasing the results, like where you google sexy footballers (you get mostly results about girls being sexy in football kit by the way)

'I've never seen a male footballer, or rugby player, say 'yes, I do football, but not in a sexy way!'.

Erm, could this be because footballers and rugby players aren't generally subjected to open lechery from women and other men? '

Well ... yes ... that's the point!

Pretending pole dancing is somehow separable from sexual objectification of women just because some individual women wish it were, isn't going to change things.

and circuits is one of the few gym classes that isn't really gendered, lots of women sweating and grunting on front of men in that one too.

I'm a no-pain-no-gain type of gym goer, yoga/aquaaerobics etc feels like a waste of my time, which is why I like stuff like circuits, spinning, pole and the gym itself instead, I don't go to pole BECAUSE I don't like to sweat and grunt in a work out - its the direct opposite of that!

So LRD, on that basis you'd give up something you enjoy doing, (something that also gets and keeps you physically fit) because that some arseholes like to lech at women doing that activity. And you'd also encourage other women to give up an activity they enjoy for the same reason?

I'd rather discourage men from bullying and objectifying women than discourage women from enjoying themselves, but hey ho.

basically men just can't help themselves from going into strip clubs because of women like me its all our fault, not theirs!

No, I wouldn't, mango.

I just wouldn't take up an activity that is primarily associated with women being used as sex objects, and which me participating in it, would give it a patina of nice middle-class respectability, thereby glamourising the real sex work that most people don't have much choice about getting into.

buddy - nope, never said that, so don't pretend I did.

"I'd rather discourage men from bullying and objectifying women"

But how is that ever going to happen, though, while this sort of thing is being normalised?

It's a difficult one, because I don't want to prevent women making their own individual choices (although 'choices' being made by women in a patriarchal society don't come from the same starting point as men's).

All I can say is that it sits very uncomfortably with me. Very uncomfortably. And for very obvious reasons. But as always with these sorts of debates, what is obvious to one is no such thing to another.........

I have two friends that do pole dancing/pole fitness (im not sure which one they call it) Ones a woman, ones a man. It certainly doesnt look particularly sexy when the guy does it, hes a bit old and overweight but he loves it.

I think some people are going to have to get to grip with the fact that if this is all about the patriarchy, then maybe there are lots of cool fun things about "the patriarchy" after all??? (tongue in cheek)

I keep reading arguments about all this stuff im supposed to be dead against, but loads of it is stuff i like and most women i know actually like, or dont mind, and the battle is just getting so obscure and frankly dreary. I just dont relate.

Tempted to sign up for a pole class now

Yes, you convinced me, the patriarchy is well fun and I like it, so it's fine! After all, if I can't relate to something, that means it doesn't matter!

That's exactly how I judge things like donating for starving kids in Africa, too, btw. I can't really relate, so fuck 'em.

If only we could all be as cool and fun as you, eh, strumpet ?

So while the patriarchy exists, it will not be possible for women (and men) to make a genuinely free choice because they are making it within a patriarchal context.

So the next stage is... how do you move on from the patriarchy?

... and short of armed revolution, I see no way of bringing the vested interests to the table to discuss this... and they have better weapons, more training - and are presumably more ruthless?

If only we all had our consciousness raised to whatever is deemed the appropriate level, eh, AnyFucker?

Me? Still struggling with choice feminism... but I'll get there.

My second point, thinking about the OP, and this may have been said already. is that academia itself is highly gendered, even in Arts and humanities, you have a gender pay gap of 16 or 17% and way fewer women in professorial roles.

I''m kind of wondering what the link is between this institutional inequality and women making the 'choice' to participate in an activity which accentuates their sexuality, and thus perpetuates inequalities. I'm not sure that is doing other women in academia a favour (is that a deeply un-sisterly thing to say??). I'd be uncomfortable with female colleagues doing Burlesque in a context of already existing institutional sexism.

summerflower
So, to move on, you need wealth re-distribution, you need a re-distribution of power, you need a re-structure of society to value women as individuals and not in how they carry themselves as sexual beings, and also a society which values traditionally women's work and doesn't marginalise those who cannot, for whatever reason, partake in the labour market.

Being a feminist, I don't believe in armed revolution, though. One of the founding tenets of feminism was pacifism.

'kay - so how do you get to there from here?

Incidentally, was SCUM mythology then?

Me? Still struggling with choice feminism... but I'll get there.

Don't struggle too hard, OMC. Or you'll start coming out with little gems like "it's getting so obscure and frankly dreary"

I'm sure you'll find that very helpful when your daughter comes home in tears when she has been treated like shit because of her gender.

AF, I must say I think you are being very harsh now. OMC is trying, and really, he deserves a huge fanfare for that. It must be terribly hard for him. Probably at least as hard as it is for women in the sex trade. Let's not fail to give him his due, or he might be discouraged, and it is important that that doesn't happen.

WTF are you on about?

I heard about choice feminism in the last week; read some stuff about how it fits within a patriarchal context - and am now reading some stuff about neo-liberalism. So far AF some of it is a bit turgid, but not really depressing. Thanks for your thought about my DD. She's an independent young woman and is most unlikely to come home again, never mind crying to parents about how she's treated.

Did your DD do so?

LRD thanks but I shan't be looking for any approbation and will manage my own disappointments, possibly with some help from SSRIs.

Seemingly pole dance in fact has ancient roots in India and China and wasn't in fact invented for the entertainment of men in seedy clubs.
Whatever its history, it's a great way to keep fit - and you really do need to be fit to do it.
I'm surprised by some of the assumptions of posters on this thread - especially the idea that pole fitness participants prance around in high heels and are unwilling to 'sweat or grunt' . I think anyone making that assumption is likely to have fallen prey to the 'glamorisation' of pole dancing more than people who've given it a go and have the blisters and muscle ache to prove it.
So perhaps 'pole fitness' gives some insight into how hard professional pole dancers really work.

Why no hand wringing about other sports derived from activities that human beings wouldn't have freely chosen to participate in, by the way? (Have outlined a few in earlier posts - could also add fencing, shooting, treadmills at the gym...)

To my mind, taking the approach that women should restrict their activities to those that aren't deemed 'sexual' indulges misogynists who'd like to degrade and inhibit women whenever they're seen engaging in free physical activity.

I've already mentioned some of the remarks I've heard made about women and equestrianism. And heaven forbid that you should mention your attending belly dancing classes to anyone who wants to imagine that since you're female you must be:
a) desperate to flaunt sell your sexual wares;
b) without entitlement to participate in any activity that any passing creep might deem as sexually 'inviting' without 'asking for it' if you're subsequently harassed or attacked;
c) responsible for the degradation of other women (as an alternative, or by dint of b))
And/or:
d) unable to make free choices of any sort in a 'patriarchy'.

I'm not sure whether I'm amused or perplexed by KRITIQ's comparison between the roots of belly and pole dance, particularly in light of later posts about the extent to which women's choices are denuded within 'the patriarchy'.

What does seem obvious to me is that targetting other women's choices for censure is a dubious way of trying to advance women's rights and status.

Pole dancing by itself isn't sexual (but I expect most feminists will disagree and argue against pole dancing because of the link it has with stripping).

Maybe men help you rack your weights because they're trying to be friendly and encourage you, and are pleased to see a woman in the weights section (as your gym is clearly an odd area of the country where women don't do these things - clearly we live far apart...). Maybe they're a little hurt their friendly overtones have been rejected. The odd one is probably trying to think of a chat up line, but I'm sure thats because he's an entrenched abuser of the patriarchy and not at all because he's lonely and looking for love/dates/friendship.

They certainly are! And it isnt a thing of the new generation either! I know a few female 40+ers who are quite capable of ogling and leching the young sportsmen with the best of em. Whether or not you feel this is acceptable behaviour is a separate issue but it is certainly not gender specific.

How silly of me not to have noticed how matches are so often disrupted by middle aged women storming the pitch, how players are unable to train, what with the disruption caused by grannies wolf-whistling, shouting obscenities at footballers who just want to mind their own business....

Yes, female lechery is well known to be one of the social ills that's made football a frightening activity for any young man.