Who is part of the patriarchy?

[EatsBrainsAndLeaves]

When we use the term patriarchy, do you think that the men you know are part of the patriarchy? And if no, then who is part of the patriarchy?

What exactly is a real feminist then?

ah, I could tell you but it would get me deleted I, for example, am not a real feminist.

So you dont think individual men are part of the patriarchy?

And no I dont post and run. I just dont spend all my time on mumsnet

Not all men, no Eats. But I'm sure you'll disagree with me.

So which men do you think are part of the patrirachy and which do you think are not?

My DP isn't. My friends aren't. My father isn't. None of the men I choose to have in my life or spend time with are part of the patriarchy. And that's what matters to me at the end of the day. So flame me.

So only men you dont like and dont know are part of the patriarchy? What if everyone thought that? Who would be part of the patriarchy then?

Because I choose not to associate with unpleasant and bigoted individuals, as a rule.

HTH

Patriarchy is a system where men as a class oppress women as a class. The system involves legal structures and laws, media, violence against women, sexism, and a whole variety of institutions. All men are part of the patriarchy. Yes even nice men. And all wmen are oppressed by the patriarchy.

If you knew the answer, or what you think the answer is, why ask the question?

Because others dont agree. Isnt this a place for discussion?

All men are involved in reinforcing the patrirachy. All men benefit from the patriarchy.

Quick (and tired) answer.

I am not sure that we all are part of the patriarchy - we may live in a patriarchal system but that what I understand the question to mean, really. You can uphold, negotiate or resist the system you live in. (plus, I don't believe in 'the' patriarchy, I think patriarchy is fluid and changes over time).

So, the question is surely who do we know who upholds/perpetuates what we see to be patriarchal values. And whether benefitting from something is the same as upholding it. Benefitting from patriarchy means being able to access opportunity, being listened to, having value in society as a man etc. Upholding patriarchy means contributing to any practice which perpetuates the oppression of women.

On a practical level, looking at men around me (mainly, but not only, educated middle class) many of them both benefit from and uphold patriarchal values, explicitly or more implicitly. None of them are horrible people, but you notice the patriarchal mindset in more subtle ways. I can think of one, possibly two, counter example(s) at the moment.

Hopefully that does not completely miss the point. Going back up thread (I think it was this one), I tend to agree with Mini, I think it was, that racism and sexism do stem from the same root, which is namely the desire for power and economic wealth among a certain group within society (white, middle class men) who have historically sought to dominate other groups.

What about monks in a closed order, how do they reinforce the patriarchy?

Or the men of some Polynesian people who live in a world where the woman are allowed several husbands and make most of the decisions. How do they reinforce the patriarchy?

sorry, x-posted with you, EatsBrainsand Leaves

I think the OP is oddly phrased. Patriarchy is male dominance and the structures that uphold it. Men as a class bear down on and oppress women as a class, which the class of males benefit from.

Women (as 'handmaidens') can partake in upholding these structures either because they are conditioned to or because that gives them immediate benefit eg- advantages over other women (such as inclusion in the 'boys club') and this can include partaking in misogynist self-harm or misogynist harm of other women.

All men are involved in reinforcing the patrirachy. All men benefit from the patriarchy

Lesbian women were also sent to concentration camps and raped as part of their punishment

So were jewish, polish, Ukrainian,, and many many more women, it does not make lesbian women special or unique. Men and women were treated sadisticly and dehumanised sometimes by women. Some of whom might have been lesbians or even feminists

This attempt to divide the world into 'good guys' and 'bad guys' (with the good guys being women, or women plus the nice men/my Nigel, or women plus the poor and oppressed etc...or whatever) is doomed to failure.

Pull on any thread of 'the patriarchy' and you find it is a complex system - nature and nurture, politics and economics, costs and benefits which we all play a part in, and benefit from (e.g. the patriarchal electricity system...). That is why it is so difficult to untie. If it was as simple as the good guys vs the bad guys it would be easy.

I think this blackhat/whitehat thinking is an inversion of the old stories. We used to be told that the people and countries that were at the top were there because they were morally and intellectually superior, they knew what they were doing and they had a plan which was for the greater good. Whats more they had god on their side and this was the natural order.

Of course this was crock of bullshit.

But in our attempt to challenge this way of thinking I think it is a mistake to grab hold of the inverse and think that those at the top are morally impaired, (and probably stupid to boot), that they have a plan and it it is to oppress the morally superior but oddly passive people at the bottom, and that this is a corruption of the natural order.

I know, 'its more complicated than that' isn't much of a revolutionary rallying cry, but I think it is the way it is.

"All men are involved in reinforcing the patrirachy. All men benefit from the patriarchy."

This is nonsense. The patriarchy damages us all.

It is simple Himalaya as is the simple idea that we need to co-operate in order to achieve things. Co-operation means that we musdt be willing to step away from idealogical and politicle beliefs, we must be able to compramise and work with others to acheive fairness for all not for some at the expense of others.

These however are alien concepts to eats who I am more and more thinking of as deliberately misleading in her stance, and her intentions for posting.