Where did all the Feminists go?

[Portofino]

MN seems to have had a reorganisation of FWR when I was on holiday and me no-likey. Why do we now have a Rad fem section and Feminist light chat. So many of the dynamic, knowledgable and interesting posters have disappeared. I have to say that some of the more radical stuff posted really made me think about my views and re-align them. There doesn't seem to be much of that anymore. I am disappointed to be honest.

SGM, LRD, thedoctrineofsnatch, Mme ... I think we are probably derailing with this side conversation about capitalism. Anybody want to start a new thread?

Mmm. I think it will get messy trying to shift across now, too late IMO.

It is fascinating though, I am enjoying listening to you all.

yy me too.

It was one of the things that used to drive me mad before, being told one was off-topic or derailing and to start one's own thread. (Fair play if it was a completely different subject obvs)

All discussions and conversations evolve organically. Ane the thread is called "Where did all the feminists go?" I think that's been covered - not a great deal more to say on that..

It is interesting. I'm a fan of the free market and prefer capitalism to socialism. I like the individualism as it gives females more opportunity to obtain power. Not great big inequality however as that tends to put some groups at top.

Studying feminism and economics is a good start and agree with Himalaya that girls should do more maths based subjects and not shy away from capitalism.

Written hastily in a wet park.

I came on here to say that I find the FWR boring now but changed my mind when I got to the bottom and read the interesting stuff about the patriarchy / poverty / capitalism / etc. So thank you all for that.

On the whole though I do find that I am very tired of hearing mainstream inanities on feminism (and everything) and I would very much like to know where all the interesting feminists (and indeed people) are talking online now (if they are). I mean all you lovely people are indeed very interesting but, you know what I mean, no? (some of you do I guess)

I 'm a feminist, but I avoid this area mostly, which is a shame. I don't need to be told that because I'm a stay at home Mum, raising my three children, that I'm economically inactive or promoting gender stereotypes (as SM so charmingly puts it, but then she's quite subtle compared to Xenia, who many of you on this board humour and tolerate politely when you should know better)
I've no problem with working Mothers because I was one, and it was a positive experience. But I often hear feminists suggesting that housewives are a problem, a bad thing, a stereotype, downtrodden etc...whilst it's better to go back to work when baby is 2 weeks old and pretend baby is just a conundrum to be dealt with. Don't let the patriarchy try and tempt you to spend time with baby because that would be a betrayal of the sisterhood. Fuck that..one of many reasons so many women don't identify with feminism and one of many reasons change will not happen as quickly as we want it to. The idea that women are just like men, that carrying a baby in your womb and giving birth to it and breastfeeding it is the same experience a man has when he creates life. It isn't. Women experience parenthood differently. . It is biology, not sociology.

I spend my life not 'humouring' Xenia, as do many of us. Likewise SM. MNHQ are sick of me reporting.

I don't know anyone else who thinks housewives are a bad thing or it's better to go back to work.

I'm not qualified to say how women or men experience parenthood, never having been either, but I think it's self-evident that being pregnant for nine months, going through labour, and having to recover from that, is going to be a different experience from not doing those things. Not sure how far it affects 'parenting' as a whole.

I would like from each to each but recognise that isn't going to happen.

Capitalism lite is ok in that it fits with the human need to trade and accumulate, but there must be heavy duty legislation and a proper State to stop the few dominating the many and hogging all the wealth and resources.

It's so-called free market capitalism that is the problem.

We are lurching towards Ayn Rand and that is not where any one wants to go.

Work v sah parenting is a false dichotomy created by the unhealthy post-industrial revt paradigm created. We need to change that.

Vezzie
I am going to start a Blog thread, with feminist blogs - we could all add to. I read more blogs than mainstream articles at the moment.

Effective legislation, not too onerous. Whatever is best for that inequality quotient and efficiency, competition.

Yes to sah + woh false dichotomy. Some rejigging of things like tax change the set up markedly.

thankyou LRD. More understanding of the different ways to be a woman and indeed a feminist, is needed. Someone is looking after the next generation whether we choose to sub contract that job out or not.

Absolutely. If we all go off and become hot-shot high earners and contract the job of childcare out, without making any other changes to society, then inevitably we will find that the people doing childcare are still mostly women and they're still mostly badly paid and badly respected for it.

(To say 'we' in that context as if I'm assuming I'd be one of the high earners not the childcaring underclass is v. arrogant, but I'm sure you know what I mean.)

Thanks MmeLindor, that sounds very interesting.

Feminist Blogs

The point is the husbands shoudl be cleaning the toilets and holding the baby . That is the real battleground, not in the boardrooms. And every housewife in the land is losing thast most impotant battleground of all and kicking every other woman in the teeth.

So if everyone's in the boardroom, who keeps the shelves filled at Tesco, looks after the babies and cleans the streets?

What woudl be the alternative to capitalism then, if not communism?

Yes, Russia perhaps not the best example. Is there a country that is socialist where women are treated better?

Rubbish. It's no better to imagine all men doing all the childcare, than all women.

Accusing women - and you know they're women reading this thread, so it is very personal - of 'kicking other women in the teeth' is really unpleasant. I am well aware you must have worked very hard (and have a huge amount of privilege and luck) to get to where you are, but I think you are using that privilege to make other women feel guilty.

You very seldom mention the importance of men's roles; you always focus on women. It does suggest you are more interested in kicking other women for their choices than anything else.

WicketyPitch - thanks for your post sometime after 11 last night.
I remember something pretty similar. (I have no idea about all the Facebook stuff, I am not in any fb groups and know nothing about them so there is a whole dimension I am missing)

I was really offended that mn went ahead with the "radical feminism" section (without apparently listening to anyone) and it felt to me that there was a whole lot of stuff about this section they just didn't "get". I still feel that the unhappiness expressed by a lot of people has been given an unfair amount of weight, where everyone else gets told "if a post breaks guidelines, report it".

The fact that this mantra was considered to be inadequate to people complaining about feminists demonstrates that their posts did not, on the whole, break guidelines: ie were not objectively nasty.

A few posts up, Autumnlights is complaining about being made to feel unwelcome "in this section" but the views she is talking about - belittling SAHMs - are not majority feminist views. Xenia is a one-off and does not confine herself to the feminist section. SM similarly I have little in common with, as I remember. If someone like her took this to mn - "the feminists make me feel unwelcome and insult my life choices" - and they believed her - then you can see why they think we are a nasty bunch. But they didn't really get it.

I do think it's boring here now, on the whole, not because it is not "feminist enough" whatever that might be, but because it's just boring.

Xenia, why do you spout such offensive nonsense. I don't want to dominate men, I want to be treated as equal. And as for the boardrooms nonsense, I've asked you before but you've never answered, why is your job more important than a shelf filler at asda?

Denmark isn't bad

isn't as bad

Xenia's offensive nonsense has no place in the real world, IMO