Where did all the Feminists go?

[Portofino]

MN seems to have had a reorganisation of FWR when I was on holiday and me no-likey. Why do we now have a Rad fem section and Feminist light chat. So many of the dynamic, knowledgable and interesting posters have disappeared. I have to say that some of the more radical stuff posted really made me think about my views and re-align them. There doesn't seem to be much of that anymore. I am disappointed to be honest.

Likewise, I never understood the whicheverwave it was that seemed to want to reclaim porn and poledancing and surgical enhancements as methods of feminist empowerment.

I don't have a problem with technology or trade, but I do have a problem with oppressive de facto hierarchies.

YY, this, very well put.

biggest con sold to women is the we are more maternal,better with kids,nurturing
this is essentially a women know your place ploy
and reinforces expectation and stereotypes of women's work

SGM - although public funding supports a lot of early stage R&D - in universities, and the military, it is almost always the private sector that scales it up, drives down the price, makes new technologies available to more people, and drives older technologies out of business, hopefully with better ones. To do this they need to raise capital. Investing in innovation is fundamentally what capitalism is about (or should be, when its not being diverted by speculation, short-termism, corruption etc...). Fixing this stuff is urgent.

FD - aren't you taking for granted some fairly fundamental stuff like electricity, safe, abundant and convenient food, the internet etc... if we just say 'what has capitalism ever done for women?' ?!?

OLKN - Kiva is not trying to undermine capitalism, it is trying to make it better - to give people access to capital so that they can grow their micro enterprises to the point where they can be part of it, and be served by banks, insurers etc... who want their business because it is worth more than 50p.

Himalaya, so I'm supporting capitalism via Kiva then? Bugger. :(

I won't stop, though, most of the people I lend to are women in agriculture at pretty much subsistence level. If I can help them make a little more, so be it.

Actually you are supporting micro finance organisations to lend to people (which is a good thing, but not a panacea). The money you lend doesn't really go to the people you clicked on. They got their loan before the photo was uploaded.

Oh, I know that's the case now, it wasn't when I started. Had one loan returned recently because the target wasn't achieved. :(

I know it's not a panacea, but I also remember a time I was trying to set up in business (as a childminder) and I couldn't even get £100 overdraft, because "the computer says no." And the (mainly) women that I lend to are in a similar place, but without benefits etc to fall back on, so I like to think, and hope, that I'm doing somebody some good.

Even if I'm not undermining capitalism, or over-throwing the patriarchy.

I agree it's good. I support Kiva too. It's a good thing. just not overthrowing capitalism.

Ok, I can live with that. :)

I am very, very late to this thread (been a lovely weekend, thanks - everyone else had fun?) but as someone who's been away for ages, then come back and had much the same reaction as Porto (except I didn't have to ask, I knew the answer was "lots of them have had enough and gone elsewhere) I do think it's sad.

It was v. kind of LRD to point to my thread about instances of everyday sexism (an attempt at consciousness-raising and support) as a good thread that's doing good things - I'm pleased people are finding it useful.

BUT on that very thread I was asked - hey, are you sure you didn't deserve to be treated in a disgustingly sexist manner? Are you sure you didn't provoke sexism, ask for sexism, invite inferior treatment by your actions or your obvious possession of a vagina? I felt like someone was asking if I'd done some kind of car-buying equivalent of wearing a short skirt while drinking vodka martinis in a crowded bar. I was asked to clarify that I wasn't in some way 'asking for it.' The spirit of "we believe you" seems to be long gone!

I did clarify, I was happy to clarify, I started a 'share-and-support' thread in an educational frame of mind. But that indicated to me how far the overton window has shifted towards sexist thinking in MN FWR and it's a shame. When this section started, people were eager to talk feminist stuff in a feminist manner. Now basic principles of feminism are generally subject to disbelief or subtle undermining. That plus all the 'equalist' talk makes me unenthused about doing a lot of posting in this section, tbh. I just can't be arsed to defend basic feminist principles like "no one's behaviour invites sexist treatment, and even if it did it wouldn't be okay" when I'm trying to post about other things. I'm not a radical feminist - I have some fairly old-school, 70s-style libfem ideals which make me look radical to some - but I do sure as hell wish they hadn't found it so uncomfortable here that they've gone elsewhere. When they were here the conversation was often abrasive, rigorous, and difficult - but it was much more supportive of actual feminism.

We are often told that this is a space for talking about feminism, not a feminist space. Now I spend time in feminist spaces. (and AIBU. And Relationships. And Chat.. but when I want to talk feminism, I want to talk to other feminists.) As noted on the very first page, it's an open forum, if people don't like it they can go elsewhere - and so, without a real flounce and more of a disappointed drift, I have done. I think this place was once a powerhouse for fabulous things, I hope the people who want it the way it is are finding it similarly useful and supportive and educational and thrilling for them, as it once was for others.

That is absolutely true, blackcurrants.

But, but ... one of my absolutely favourite, stand-out threads was the Separatism thread. I loved it. It was full of people asking about basic, and not-so-basic tenets of feminism, or being sceptical/angry/on the pisstake about feminism in general and that OP in particular. Same with any PIV thread that has ever started. Same with a lot of trans threads. Or with resisting femininity.

I don't think anyone should feel they have to be explaining themselves again and again (because being held to account is tedious). But I think when there's a great bit of debate, you stop noticing the nay-sayers, or they fade out of your memory when you think back.

I can remember loads of threads when BobtheMraTroll was around, but can't remember much of what he ever posted. It was fucking annoying at the time, but it wasn't memorable.

I spend more time reading blogs or talking to real-life feminist mates these days. It doesn't make me look at the majority of threads on here and think they're not 'actual feminism' or that there's nothing happening.

'but I do sure as hell wish they hadn't found it so uncomfortable here that they've gone elsewhere. When they were here the conversation was often abrasive, rigorous, and difficult - but it was much more supportive of actual feminism.'

I'm sorry that compromise wasn't possible for so many, and that you feel the boards have changed and not for the better. I see a lot of people posting that have different understandings of what it means to be a feminist and who are prepared to discuss those differences.
I know that a lot has been said about the disruptions and trolling by MRAs, but TBH it wasn't them that kept many from feeling confident enough to post, or to return having posted once. So it might be that the board in its previous incarnation wa much more supportive of what you see as feminism, but I feel it is now more supportive of the wide range of women who think of themselves as feminist and want to explore those concepts and attitudes in a less abrasive environment.
As I said, it is a pity that so may of the previous members found that unacceptable.

Himalaya, capitalising electricity is, to me, awful. Why should it only be available on a "how much you can afford" basis? I mean, if you look at the PAYG system; the first month I was in my current house, I went through £80 in electric, despite having no washing machine, no TV, no oven, no radio... (and believe me, trying to live without an oven for four weeks is a bloody nightmare...)

The problem is, with capitalism, we've ended up with a grand level of poverty. 1 in 4 children are living in poverty in the UK. And I'll tell you, I've been there where I've had to go without food for a couple of days, so DS can eat, or where I've been mentally working out if I can afford to stick the heater on (electric storage, joy of joys) during winter, or to help dry clothes for the next day. And hey, guess what! When it comes to adults in poverty, who is more likely to be in poverty? Oh, that's right... Women... Yay, capitalism!

And yes, I'm aware poverty predates capitalism. But we can't escape the poverty trap whilst holding a love affair with capitalism. And as for SAHPs...

Surely, we should be fighting for SAHPs to be recognised for just what they do, exactly? Rather than shaming them into what capitalism deems work, again? Yes, I'd love for there to be an overhaul, where women no longer feel the need to take time out of work to raise their children, but surely, we need to recognise that those who do are not "not working".

If there's a way to overhaul the capitalist system so that we have NO-ONE living in poverty, so that women aren't routinely oppressed by capitalism, then go ahead. But whilst there's still women going without food so that their kids can eat, or debating whether they can afford to stick the heater on, then SURELY that's proof that capitalism is anti-woman?

Blackcurrants, thanks from me too for the thread. I do think the poster who asked you that question has some "interesting" ideas i.e. that it is bad for people who care about an issue to get angry about it. Hopefully the majority of posters didn't make you feel like that.

To me, Frothy, capitalism is 'blind' and the fact that it is women that are more likely to be poor in a capitalist system is because we live in a patriarchy. There's a better chance of dismantling the patriarchy than capitalism, I think.

I honestly think patriarchy and capitalism go hand in hand. We can't dismantle the patriarchy without dismantling capitalism, but the patriarchy could still survive without capitalism.

Frothy
But surely that isnt the fault of capitalism per se, but of it being abused by greedy managers, only interested in the best return for their investors.

And the fault of regulators (ie. the politicians) for not protecting the public from scams like the electricity meter tariff, which is going to be used by those on a low income, being more expensive than high incomes.

And the alternative to Capitalism doesn't sound good to me. Go to the former East Germany now and see the effects that are still being felt. Or worse - Russia. Women didn't do to well in communist countries either.

I don't think we have to dismantle capitalism but we do have to have more checks and balances to stop the abuse in it's name.

But communism isn't the only alternative to capitalism.

And, btw, I honestly do not believe what happened in Russia had nothing to do with the same pressures there are in capitalism. Even in Soviet times, the basic power-of-money or power of a system in which capital is used to bribe, was pretty huge, as I understand it, which may not be far enough.

communism isn't the only alternative to capitalism.

Sadly, I have to dash and take Mini-Dragon to school (it's his first full day... eek!) so will come back to this in an hour or two :)

Frothy, I am really interested in why you think that we couldn't dismantle patriarchy without dismantling capitalism. Do you have a view on what economic system would have evolved in a matriarchy?

I think that the power of barter, translated into money for ease of trade, is gender blind. Perhaps we have a different definition of capitalism though.

ah, I should be working anyway, having got up early to Get Stuff Done! good luck to mini-dragon!

I do seriously think that the individualism of capitalism (try say that ten times fast) is intrinsically linked into the patriarchy, and I would at least like to think that a feminist society would be more collaborative.

I think matriarchy isn't the alternative to patriarchy - it would be another unequal society?

I think patriarchy and capitalism are like the chicken and the egg. The patriarchy exists because women can be sold/profited from; capitalism exists because the patriarchy makes it possible to sell/profit from the labour of others.

This is making my head hurt, but it's interesting.

Oh, and good luck to mini-dragon!