Where did all the Feminists go?

[Portofino]

MN seems to have had a reorganisation of FWR when I was on holiday and me no-likey. Why do we now have a Rad fem section and Feminist light chat. So many of the dynamic, knowledgable and interesting posters have disappeared. I have to say that some of the more radical stuff posted really made me think about my views and re-align them. There doesn't seem to be much of that anymore. I am disappointed to be honest.

Mine, too.

Also on the (many) RadFem views, (mainly) LibFem methods bench.

Part of the problem, though, seems to be that the achievements of LibFems are sometimes presented as if their achievements somehow almost equal the totality of their ambitions. Which is unfair because that's not the case, but it does all feel a bit piecemeal.

And the LibFem emphasis on legislative change means that the whinging backlash from misogynists gets worse because they've been taken to water but not made to drink. And they claim the backlash is because they've been pushed too far and the natural order of things is reasserting itself.

I don't think this means LibFem can't work in the future, though. But it needs to get a lot less... can't think of the right term. At the moment it feels too bogged down in numbers games etc.

vesela, yes. ideally something in between would be brilliant. LibFem has this reputation of being too wishy washy, RadFem has a rep of being humourless and stringent. its a shame that theres this daft segregation, we all want the same ends, and theres a lot that both "teams" can learn from each other.

Revolutionaries often turn out to be the best reformists, because they think big and fight hard, whereas if you are only after piecemeal change, you often end up compromising even on that. Look at Nick Clegg and his change-from-within strategy, for example: it's not working out so well for anyone.

Apart from when they get a bit carried away and murder all their opponents of course.

BOF, thats a good point.

Yeah, you want to avoid genocide whenever possible.

kind of undermines "the cause"

I will keep a good eye on SGM then, and make sure she isn't stocking up on guns, ammo etc.

I mean, it would be unlikely, her being a Canadian and all, but you never know...

If I were a champion of capitalism and the patriarchy, it's the ethical shopping that would have me more worried....

stewie, I knew that. I watch How I Met Your Mother.

and caribou are ace.

My conspiracy-theory brain goes into overdrive when I think about "overthrowing capitalism" proposed as a feminist goal.

It just seems to be the latest in a long-line of mental barriers erected between women and technology/innovation/capital and all that good stuff.

e.g.:
'Women can't do maths,science,finance etc.. your brain is not designed for it.'
'Its fine for girls and women to do low paid work for the love of it, but boys/men need to aspire to real careers which can support a family'
'you are needed in the kitchen, or the fabric of society will disintegrate'
'don't be too clever or try to lead, it isn't ladylike'

etc...etc... feminism has challenged all these successfully.

I think we would be suckers at this point to fall for the idea that capitalism isn't for women (...to change from the inside...) it just seems like a counter-culture version of the same old lies to me.

it's flawed but I like capitalism
and communism hasn't demonstrably benefitted women
I favor ethical capitalism

Ethical capitalism, would that include organisations like www.kiva.org, where ordinary people lend money to other ordinary people (but make no profit)?

If so, I have been quietly undermining capitalism for years!

"Yeah, you want to avoid genocide whenever possible."

Killjoy :(

But Ethical Capitalism still fails to make the mainstream. And for the most part, your bog standard, run of the mill, Tesco on every street corner capitalism has never benefited women.

SGM, sorry to be a complete and utter pain in the arse (what else would you expect from me), but did you ever make a full list of companies/individuals you've boycotted through the "Misogynistic Walk Of Shame"?

The trouble is that, whilst women are more likely to be raising children alone or taking time out of work whilst their children are ill, or doing the majority of wifework (etc, to save wittering on for 94869694 words) capitalism WILL oppress women, end of. I don't think there is a way to turn capitalism around to benefit women. It's a patriarchal construct

Patriarchy pre-dates capitalism, so I think we should focus on the patriarchy. We live in a capitalist society, so capitalist patriarchy warrants our focus, but the religious patriarchy shouldn't be overlooked - I mean think of the Pope and how anti-condom/birth control literally means women get AIDS or have more children, or have children younger than they can cope with?

I think the defeatist attitude about 'we'll never overthrow the patriarchy' is because there are women whose excitement and power felt in the 70s and 80s was swamped by an enormous backlash, I'm even thinking about a particular conversation with a woman at a march where everyone was chanting "Women United Will Never Be Defeated!"... and she said "but we were" ruefully. But I am totally convinced that patriarchy is actually being smashed as we speak- cracks have appeared and it is crumbling and may my great-granddaughters spit on its grave.

I don't have a problem with technology or trade, but I do have a problem with oppressive de facto hierarchies.

Which is one of the reasons why I get irritated by women who allow that to happen when they have a partner and they don't expect an equal division of labour FrothyDragon.
They are participating in their own exploitation, enabling men to go unchallenged in their assumption that male needs trump female, despite the years of education available to them, and the discussions and debates and theory they encountered at school.

no,not if you remain engaged with capitalism and working
problematic if woman becomes housewife and economically inactive ,dependent upon dp
women don't need to habitually enact stereotypical roles like housewife or carer

I tend to disagree with that, Frothy, and agree with Himalaya. Cannot stick around to elaborate, though, as I've got to STAY OFF MUMSNET FOR A WEEK (caps to self) and do some capitalism before it does me.