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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Feminism: chat

Original poster

What is the patriarchy?

256 replies

EatsBrainsAndLeaves · 13/09/2012 09:35

I am aware that we use words here like the patriarchy as if everyone understands what this means. I know when I first came on FWR I didnt. So I thought it mght be helpful if women who do understand it, explained what they understand the term patriarchy to mean.

OP posts:
TheDoctrineOfSnatch · 19/09/2012 08:21

Hi Xenia - I've got a meeting near the Mall this afternoon, could squeeze in a topless march around 3.30 if you can join me.

Oh wait, hang on - I decide not to do that with my body.

TheDoctrineOfSnatch · 19/09/2012 08:27

Rosa, this is not a feminist forum, it's a forum to discuss feminism. Grin Can I make that into a TSSDNCOP style acronym..?
TINFFIAFTDF.

Exotic you've reminded me - has anyone read The Kingmaker's Daughter yet? My mum reads loads of Philippa Gregory books and I've resisted so far but I do have a soft spot for Anne Neville.

florencejon · 19/09/2012 08:34

Xenia - "The fact the showing of a woman's breasts is something to be stopped by a protective man of his housewife is not particularly feminist. We would rather the Duchess was joining bare breasted marches on the right to show your breasts down the Mall surely.... "

You can want all you want, but it is Kate's life and Kate's choice and you do not have the right to take that away from her.

Xenia · 19/09/2012 10:22

I have the right though to point out the error of people's ways in a country with free speech. There is a very good article by the owner of the Standard in last night's paper about the issue and it is an issue which troubles me on mumsnet too and in the press in general . He says we may get too used to having common views. I fear that too. I want to live in an England where people can have very different views but live in harmony , not be stoned because they are pro or anti porn or pro or anti hunting etc etc.

You can end up with it becoming dangerous to express a view. We should all be allowed to put up films however silly on youtube without risking being bombed.

The Doctrine - why is it doing something to your body to choose to show it? Breasts are always a fascinating feminist issue because clearly they are treated as more sexually provoking than are male chests in most cultures. The fact the Duchess was presented with bare breasted women in a culture without our stupid hangups over nudity was such fun.

What we need is a duchess with such strong views she is prepared to meet Solomon islands in an outfit which shows her own breasts. That really would have been some progress.

messyisthenewtidy · 19/09/2012 10:35

And don't forget that Kate operates in society just like the rest of us. She may well believe that there is nothing wrong with baring her baps (and indeed there isn't) but she has, like the rest of us, been conditioned to be embarrassed by it.

TheDoctrineOfSnatch · 19/09/2012 10:43

Xenia I said "do that with" not "do that to"

My point was it was my decision as you seemed to be saying that a protective man was the one making the decision. Will you be walking barebreasted down the Mall? Let me know and I'll come and meet you.

summerflower · 19/09/2012 11:19

She may well believe that there is nothing wrong with baring her baps (and indeed there isn't) but she has, like the rest of us, been conditioned to be embarrassed by it.

messyisthenewtidy · 19/09/2012 12:55

Summerflower - yeah totally! I was more defending Kate against Xenia's insistence that she march down the Mall bare breasted!! Grin

Xenia · 19/09/2012 13:16

It certainly can be pretty convenient to have a spouse minding children for a few days a week whilst you get a full night's sleep, nights out, a lover even for men or women so inclined, and a muggins spouse at home doing it all. That tends to occur where there is an imbalance in earnings between the couple. What if you said to him I would like 3 nights a week without the child around you have it - would he arrange things to ensure you had that freedom too?

I suppose the Duchess has at least progressed beyond the earlier royals in that she is prepared to sunbathe topless, something many of them would not have risked. Progress of a sort but we need to reach a position where we can be as free as the Solomon islanders to show breasts without anyone missing a beat.

Xenia · 19/09/2012 13:17

(sorry, can't go topless down the Mall today, too much work. As a family we have though always done a lot of nude swimming. Even my grandparents in the 1930s did it - although that was in the North Sea which is pretty cold. I prefer warmer climes for stripping off)

grimbletart · 19/09/2012 13:18

This is not really about breasts - it is about privacy. Kate was not in a public place. She was not on a public beach. If you see the pictures on the BBC website yesterday it shows the view from the road where the pictures were taken. It is so far away that it is impossible to make out whether a person on that balcony was male or female or even be sure it is a person. The only way to do that is through powerful long photographic lenses.

Without long photographic lenses those pictures would not have been possible.

The couple were entitled really to think they could act as normal people do in that situation i.e. sunbathe, lounge around without some cash-grabbing paparazzi hoping to make big bucks out of them by flogging them to some trash magazine.

What is really more concerning is that if paparazzi could take a photograph at such a distance then a long range marksman could do the same. And I imagine that is what security will now be focusing on (though why they hadn't before heaven only knows).

Looks like the last little bit of normality this couple thought they could have is gone for good.

TheDoctrineOfSnatch · 19/09/2012 13:20

Um they may have all been sunbathing nude, we just didn't know about it before the days of long lenses!

Xenia · 19/09/2012 13:54

I suspect their protection officers ought to suss these thigns out. Second she should never sunbathe topless. It is not really allowed as part of the rules if you want to be the potential King's consort. We all know that. Thirdly though I accept French law was likely to be broken.

She has not said why she is unhappy with her breasts being seen though. Are they deformed? Is she ashamed of them? Will she be breastfeeding in public in due course? Does she have old fashioned views about breasts which need to be changed?

WorriedBetty · 19/09/2012 13:55

Don't worry about the patriarchy, worry about the overarching male hegemony..

TheDoctrineOfSnatch · 19/09/2012 13:56

Who gives a shit why she doesn't want to? She doesn't want to. The law was broken. The end.

Original poster
EatsBrainsAndLeaves · 19/09/2012 15:26

The patriarchy is about the overarching male domination in our society which overarching male hegemony is part of.

OP posts:
exoticfruits · 19/09/2012 18:59

If you want to get anywhere Eats you need plain English - that is sheer gobbledygook.

amillionyears · 19/09/2012 19:13

Look folks.
Xenia is right.
So if she is saying Kate shouldnt sunbathe topless then it is because Xenia does not sunbathe topless.
There is nothing magical about what Xenia says.
Whatever she says,does,thinks is right,and whatever she doesnt do or doesnt think is wrong.
Simples.

mathanxiety · 19/09/2012 19:13

I invite you all to come on over to a thread currently running in Chat about the question of the KM photos to see some good examples of how living in a patriarchal world affects even women's perceptions of right and wrong in the moral sense and individual rights and liberties in the civil sense. It has all got quite mixed up with rabid anti royal sentiment, but there is a rich vein of victim blaming that is gobsmacking.

Even the title 'Kate Middleton hol pics thing -- why did she do it?' speaks volumes.

mathanxiety · 19/09/2012 19:16

The problem is that women are sexually objectified and women's bodies have been commodified and can be pimped around the internet and into the press.

rosabud · 19/09/2012 20:10

Rosa, this is not a feminist forum, it's a forum to discuss feminism. Can I make that into a TSSDNCOP style acronym..?
TINFFIAFTDF

Oh sorry.

Did I just read the words "set her cap at him" on a forum to discuss feminism??

TheDoctrineOfSnatch · 19/09/2012 20:19

Umm, yep!

OneMoreChap · 19/09/2012 20:24

Yes Rosabud. I said that.
Why?

I said it in response to she met him at University and fell for her flatmate. That much is certainly questionable. Is the language too antique?

She decided to pursue someone she was interested in... is that better?

FoodUnit · 19/09/2012 21:29

TheDoctrineOfSnatch You are wrong. This is a 'feminism and women's rights forum' (ie a forum to discuss topics pertinent to feminism), not a 'forum to discuss feminism'.

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