What is the patriarchy?

[EatsBrainsAndLeaves]

I am aware that we use words here like the patriarchy as if everyone understands what this means. I know when I first came on FWR I didnt. So I thought it mght be helpful if women who do understand it, explained what they understand the term patriarchy to mean.

:)

The other point enimmead is that, these days, it is quite possible that the man becomes the SAHD-many do. It is up to the couple.

It's quite possible - but not "what men do as a class". It's not the patriarchal expectation, is it? But it happens. Unusual but I agree couples should decide. As they both have free will and free choice.

Re "at the very first sign a western woman should run a mile" - a lot of the women talked about in this article had no chance to "run a mile"

m.guardian.co.uk/culture/2012/sep/22/creepshots-revenge-porn-paparazzi-women?cat=culture&type=article

exotics there is no excuse for a Western woman to be dominated? Seriously?? So there is no excuse for women who have been brought up in abusive homes to be dominated, they should have just realized, aged 3, what was going on there and left, should they? There is no excuse for the overweight/underweight/spotty/ginger/disabled/any-other-ways-of-not-conforming-to-expected-norms-of-female-beauty women to feel vulnerable and dominated whilst being bullied at school, they should have just stood up to that enormous amount of peer pressure and sorted that out, should they, and not let it ever effect them again in future relationships with other people? There is no excuse for the young married woman who has given up work to look after the baby to feel that her husband, as he is working all day and bringing home the money, should have more right to go out on a Friday night than her because there is enormous assumption from the way that family and firends are living their lives that this is pretty normal, she should just take a stand against all that, should she, despite being tired all the time and no idea, by the way, how exactly she would cope financially if said husband took objection to this lone stand on her part and buggered off? So there is no excuse for all the women who are in low paid work, not to feel dominated by the system depite being taught by their whole life experiences that this is to be expected, they should just stand up and refuse to be in that situation, should they, despite being somewhat reliant on such work for survival?

Thank goodness there's no excuse for all those women and it's all their own fault.

I am not talking about children they are trapped.
No one has to have a partner or get married. At the start of a relationship there must be a very first time that they swear at you - and that is when you say 'goodbye'- you don't give second chances. The first time they hit you you say 'goodbye'- again you don't listen to excuses and you don't give second chances.
Once you accept it, or listen to apologies you are set up for the second time and more. Once you have pooled finances and had children and been worn down into thinking it is your fault you are as trapped as the child and is difficult and frightening to get out.
However - the first time they do it is simple- get out immediately.
Never rush into anything- meet the friends, meet the family. Look especially at the mother - does she make sure that everyone shares the work? Does your potential partner cook- clean bathrooms etc etc?
You need to use your head and have self preservation.
No one has hit or sworn at me- and they would only do it once!

No woman needs a man. They can manage perfectly well single.

Feminism starts at home with the individual. Don't get involved with a man who doesn't support it. No able bodied woman needs a meal ticket .

That's a bit black and white exotic. Not everyone is as sure of themselves as you appear to be.

Exotic have you read the stories on here about men who change character once their DP is pregnant or has given birth?

They must have seen some signs before. They must have done something. You can't have an equal relationship based on mutual respect and suddenly they do a complete change. Seeing them with too much to drink early on us a good idea- if they are likely to change character they will do it then.
Sadly abusive men home in on vulnerable women which is probably why they avoid me. I would either say 'on your bike, sunshine'! or I would talk them to death getting them to explain and going to Relate.
You do need to bring up your DCs to be strong. My parents never hit me or put me down and there is a lot of strength in knowing they would always support me.
Therefore- I am probably being unfair - if you are brought up with abuse and no support you may well find yourself giving second, third chances and being trapped.
The best thing people can do is make sure that their DCs don't put up with less than the best.(DSs too - many have abusive partners)
Make sure they know that you don't need a partner and it is better not to have one than have an unequal one.

Oh OK so children are trapped, but adult women should just say "no thanks" the minute someone swears at them or hits them, even if that is what they have experienced all their lives? So could you just let us all know what age these women should be a suddenly able to do that by, then? Trapped at 17 but 2 weeks later at 18 you just say, "oh I'm an adult now, so that's not OK anymore," do you? And you just never let the huge reprecussions of being brought up by that affect you ever again?

And before we all get married as long as we see how our potential partners treat their bathrooms then all should be OK? What if he stops cleaning the bathroom but instead of noticing straight away we're a bit preoccupied with the stress of becoming a parent and adapting to new lifestyle and, also, we notice that lots of other families are living this way so what on earth are we making a fuss about? No, no, we should just say at the first sign of the new non-cleaning of bathrooms - "off you go matey!" Oh, except, hang on, how are we going to support the new baby and pay for the joint mortgage on our own now we are only on maternity pay? Oh we'll just find a childminder for new baby and go and get a well paid carreer, shall we? Oh, except hang on, we are in a low paid job because that is what our experience of women in society has led us to expect and we forgot to stand up for that before we had the baby - and anyway, he WAS cleaning the bathroom at that point wasn't he??

Oh goodness it's all so complicated and there are so many things to consider.....oh except no it isn't, we should have just said no at the first swear word and dirty loo. Now why didn't we all think of that?? Because I look around and see rather a lot of us who found it slightly more complicated!

I think that you are getting rather silly. It is well known that abusive people will home in on a victim - they read the signs without even being conscious of it.
The bottom line is that in history women needed a male earner. They don't today - they can all do it alone- it is difficult but you can get out.

My DS had a flat mate who drove him mad because he seemed incapable of doing the slightest thing in the way of housework. He heaved a sigh of relief when he moved out to live with his girlfriend. He isn't going to change. The girlfriend must be doing it for him- if they go into have children she will have an extra child. After the first week she needs to have sat him down and given him a stark choice- his share or out . That is when it is easy.

Exotic I am really confused by your posts - abusive people home in on a victim/it is not difficult to see what is going on straight away and end the relationship.

What is it you think abused are homing in on, if not someone for whom that would be a difficult thing to do?

I am afraid I am going to have to disagree with you exotic.
"They must have seen some signs before"
There are some men [maybe women too,but I dont know any personally],who do change after marriage.
I know this from a very close relative[I am not talking about myself].She says it has happened to her.And it is sad.She says he changed when they were on honeymoon.And I believe her.
It is possible that you and I and others would indeed have seen some signals beforehand,but I doubt it in this particular case.I think once he was married he reverted to his true self.They didnt spend that many hours together in the great scheme of things before marriage,and that may have been part of the problem,who knows.
I have also known it happen,to another relative,where the man changed when he got engaged,and the person I know,wisely,broke off the engagement.He subsequently did the same think to a future girlfriend and again that gf broke it off.

I dare say that I am being too simplistic. I have known people walk out on a marriage half way through the honeymoon.
Speaking personally I never saw it as a given that I would marry and have children- I was quite prepared to be a career person and single.
People on the whole will get away with things if you let them get away with it.
All I am really saying- but very badly- is rather than keep fighting the collective, start with the individual that you know.

No exotics you are being silly, by pretending that such complex things as relationships and the roles of women in society are straight forward and by refusing to admit that things are more complicated than that. Perhpas you are in the fortunate position never to have experienced the things we are discussing; if that is so then please have the humility to accept that these things may not be as uncomplicated as you imagine. Your comment higher up the thread about observing a man when he has had a drink as that may show if he is potentially the sort of man who will change his character, is naive in the extreme and shows no understanding of how complex our characters and behaviour patterns can be - not to mention an equally naive view of the nature of drinking/getting drunk.

I think that it is quite simplistic, yes, so thanks for coming back and saying so!

Even your DS, who wasn't in love with his lazy flatmate, presumably opted for something other than sitting down after the first week and saying "shape up or ship out"?

He would have asked him to move out - he was saved any unpleasantness by the girlfriend taking him on.
I agree that I am being too simplistic. It is easy to make mistakes - having said all that I did -I once agreed to marry a man after 3 days!! Luckily we don't get around to it and parted soon after.
You do however need to be assertive.

On reflection ignore my last few posts. Relationships are never simple. It does work both ways - my nephew is in an emotionally abusive relationship and we all wish that he would realise it and get out.

I think that we all want love, and so you put up with things in a relationship because you want it to work.

I know I have. Put up with behaviour that I know as a feminist I shouldn't. There's also the "boys will be boys" message that is drummed into us, the implication being the egalitarian man is few and far between and that it doesn't do to have too many standards else you'll end up an old maid.

Speaks a very happy old maid-in-training!!

Women are raised under patriarchy to put up with a lot of shit from men. So not surprisingly, nearly all women do. We are taught to make excuses for men's behaviour so the majority of women do.

If you doubt this just consider why in general men still do way less childcare and housework than their female partners, even when they do the same number of paid work hours outside the home?

And yet when I point out that you don't need to put up with it, and you don't need a man in your life, I am in trouble.
I was brought up with brothers and I wasn't taught to make excuses for men's behaviour- in fact I can't even think of any.
I agree that relationships are never simple, and you can't necessarily spot future problems, but it would be a good idea to start at home with the men and DCs that you know- with my brothers we did exactly the same amount of housework - we knew exactly whose turn it was to wash up etc.
I did more childcare because I loved it and rate it way above paid employment. Since I was at home I did more housework. However once I was back at work DH did an equal share, and at the moment he does more because he is working from home. Things are not static.

There is always a difficult balance between - oh woe is me, nothing is my fault, it's the Cameron Governments or the bankers or men and she was brought up in such a sexist way that she does not even notice that it is unfair her brothers do nothing and she is on her feet clearing up all day or she cannot escape a relationship where she is abused because of how she feels tied to the abuser.

it is certanily not easy but we do not just want women as victims. We want more women like ef and I are who are able to say that versy first time the man might suggest we iron a shirt - what on earth do you mean, not on your nelly - here is the iron and make sure mine are done by morning. We certainly need to work very hard to educate our own daughters not to accept sexism. I suspect some families are just full of strong women - I know my great grandmother even in 1910 would not have accepted unfairness at home from what I have heard. Her daughter was widowed so obviously was pretty strong and competent herself and in the 60s my father did the night feeds (bottle feeds) and hoovered every weekend etc etc. I certainly in the 80s would never have tolerated a sexist marriage.

Other women are from a line of cowed pathetic weak women who look after men and accept unfairness every day. It is changing that culture which will help us. Of course given 30% of the planet is due to be Muslim with women as second class citizens in a decade or two there is a massive risk all recent gains will be totally lost.

Gosh, Xenia, I agree with you for the second time ever!
I don't think that you can say that women are raised to put up with shit, most women put up with shit - and then when I point out that western women can earn their own living, don't need a meal ticket and don't need to put up with it, I get ridiculed over the cleaning of bathrooms.
I agree- why are you ironing his shirt? I did it for a short time whenI was at home. I didn't do it before DCs. I do it sometimes now but it isn't an issue because he does far more ironing than I do.
I come from a family of strong women - my mother never saw the need for feminism - she grew up in a matriarchal home. My grandfather was very laid back and ' happy go lucky' and her mother was the driving force.