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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

See all MNHQ comments on this thread

Women subsumed into their children

444 replies

Xenia · 02/09/2012 09:41

We certainly must guard against woman as only mother and nothing else

www.ft.com/cms/s/2/0bf95f3c-f234-11e1-bba3-00144feabdc0.html#axzz25Ieiea9E

OP posts:
brass · 11/09/2012 16:29

it is daft. I am thoroughly proud of my children and the sacrifices my DH and I had to make in order for me to be a primary carer for as long as I was. For a while I was subsumed in their needs and other aspects of life did take a back seat. What's wrong with that? It's more damaging an article from the point of view that women can't get it right.

If you work you're damaging your offspring by being absent
If you SAHM you have no value, not contributing, not a good role model
If you choose a photo of your DC you have no identity
If you choose a photo of yourself?.......wtf?

I personally feel like I don't need to jump through anyone's hoops and will make the choices in life that are right for me.

CheerfulYank · 11/09/2012 17:09

I'm with you, Brass .

I love pottering around at home. I have a friend who runs a radio station top to bottom, works all hours, has two little girls, and loves it. She's brilliant. Neither of us are making choices for everyone, just the right ones for us. We're both completely happy.

FrothyOM · 13/09/2012 04:42

I always have pictures of my kids as my profile pic because I'm proud of them.

I am a care assistant when working, maybe my profile should be a picture of a shitty arse.

Thumbwitch · 13/09/2012 04:57

Frothy, I guess that would depend on whether you, personally, identify yourself with a shitty arse... Wink

FrothyOM · 13/09/2012 05:05
Grin
FrothyOM · 13/09/2012 05:16

Xenia has a profile pic of an island, mine could be beans on toast...

Thumbwitch · 13/09/2012 05:36
Grin
PeahenTailFeathers · 13/09/2012 07:45

Ha ha, FrothyOM

I read the OP article with a Hmm face. I don't have a Facebook account, but I really don't think there is a valid argument against a woman being able to put a pretty picture of her choice on a fairly trivial social networking site. I have photographs of my baby and my cat on on my Mumsnet profile but none of myself; what's wrong with that? I think the author of the article is suffering from too much overthinking and too little ability to form a valid argument.

I am utterly subsumed in being the mother of my 16 week old daughter: Wordsworth's lines, "Light to the sun and music to the wind," spring to mind. Inasmuch as I subscribe to the theory that we are defined by our genes (not very much, to be honest), I believe we must be the end product of thousands of good mothers who have blessed us with their instincts and ability to devote themseves to raising healthy, successful children. I am grateful for that inheritance. Babies are completely dependant on us; of course mothers focus on their children's wellbeing for the few, precious years that they need. I have a degree; I speak 4 languages; I have a library of more than 10,000 books (including at least 300 volumes of feminist dissertation). Why should this be more important in defining me as a woman than motherhood?

Giving birth is the hardest and most wonderful thing I have ever done. I now have strength and capability that I never dreamed possible. It has even inspired me to start writing again after 13 years; the first thing I wrote, 4 days after my baby was born, was a very frank, completely tmi and rather good (even if I say so myself Blush Grin) account of my labour in the Childbirth section on here. If I hadn't become a mother, my talent for writing would never have been used again.

Like Xenia, I went back to work after 2 weeks (okay, slight boast, partly because I could get back into my pre-pregnancy clothes) and I've managed to combine this with successful breastfeeding. I enjoy my job very much; it is challenging, fast-paced and stimulating. Yet my job could never compare with the bone-deep satisfaction and pleasure I feel when I am caring for and nurturing my baby. How sad that the art/skill of being a mother is so belittled, especially by women who are mothers themselves.

*I wrote a much longer and, hopefully, more elegant post but lost it Angry. This is the gist anyay.

autumnlights12 · 13/09/2012 12:11

thank you Peahen for a brilliant post and one I wholeheartedly agree with.

greenhill · 13/09/2012 13:13

That is lovely peahen. And much more succinct and better written than the original article too, which looked like it had been thrown together for a fast approaching deadline.

CheerfulYank · 13/09/2012 15:54

I'm tired of feeling like I should be ashamed that I like what I do as a SAHM. (I do manage a cinema part time as well, actually, but am home all day.) I love that my house is calm and welcoming and I am proud of the child I am working hard to raise into a good person, and yes, I like cooking for my husband. I want to have more children, possibly a lot more, and I want to stay home and care for them.

I'm not ashamed.

amillionyears · 13/09/2012 16:03

Im not ashamed either.There are probably millions like us.

IShallCallYouSquishy · 13/09/2012 16:03

My DD is the single most wonderful thing that has ever happened to me. She is my FB profile picture. Before that it was a picture of my husband and I on our wedding day, as up until DD's birth, that was the most important event in my life.
I am proud of the beautiful (to me) little person my husband and I am more then happy to have her represent me and doesn't stop me being a sensible, educated woman with a career in a male dominant sector.

JugglingWithPossibilities · 13/09/2012 17:46

Some great posts and lines on here recently Thanks

Having my DD and DS and bringing them up is the most important work I've done or likely to do. I've done lots of other interesting things, but nothing as awesome or important as this. I love it all ( well, OK, not all Grin )

autumnlights12 · 13/09/2012 23:14

'I love that my house is calm and welcoming and I am proud of the child I am working hard to raise into a good person, and yes, I like cooking for my husband.'
Me too Cheerfulyank.

CheerfulYank · 13/09/2012 23:23

I don't mean to imply that those things I mentioned are exclusive to SAHMs at all, before I get flamed. :)

I'm just not very good at doing a lot of things at the same time, and for now I've chosen to focus on my home and kid and marriage, and I don't think there's anything wrong with that.

scottishmummy · 13/09/2012 23:27

equally Im happy & enjoy working ft guilt free.no qualms
I had this all planned,kids,career,ft work
I've never wanted to be housewife.my man cooks his own dinners if need be

CheerfulYank · 13/09/2012 23:32

No reason you should feel guilty ScottishMummy!

scottishmummy · 13/09/2012 23:36

I don't!have read the global maternal guilt assumption om mn
have been asked on mn who have em if you let strangers watch em.yadda yadda
we all experience it differently

PeahenTailFeathers · 14/09/2012 07:28

I think "I'm not ashamed" should be a Mumsnet slogan. It's an elegant and succinct statement to use in defence of our own choices, whatever they may be, when we don't want to squeeze into the claustrophic compartments that society or other people expect.

I spent a lot of time thinking about this thread yesterday. Xenia; you agree with the article's premise that women are disappearing behind their children when they don't use their own picture on social networking websites, but I've read on here that you have a photo of your island on your Twitter account, not a picture of your own face. You're still hiding behind something. I think that having a photo of your on child/ren is a far better representation of yourself: our children are a direct part of us, fresh buds grown from our own bodies. Even when they are born, their stem cells remain in our bodies as our cells are in theirs.

Going off on one slightly here, but in a joyous, Natalie Angier or Clarissa Estes style of feminist viewpoint. Women should be proud of their achievements, whatever they are, but but we shouldn't necessarily be proud of our possessions, because we are of more value than the the fripperies we accumulate in our life. So much work generally done by women is low paid, but still of infinite value; caring for relatives or people in a nursing home, cleaning, nursing, looking after children - to name but a few jobs. It would be nice if women accepted that these are at least as important, if not more, than being an international banking consultant or the director of a blue chip company. These careers have high monetary renumeration, but if we had to write a list of what was really important to us, what made us what we are, would that list really include things? Mine would include: the sparkle in my baby's eyes, brighter than any jewel; the sound of her burbling laughter; the rich bristle of my cat's fur under my fingers; changing seasons (the first warm breath of summer dancing through a cold spring day or the icy promise of winter on a sunny autumn afternoon); the taste of strawberries; reading a book where the author has taken the 26 random shapes that make up the alphabet and formed them into words that sear into my soul; unhurried mornings spent with friends; my plants; birdsong; walking along the coast; Vivaldi; the rich, satisfying tiredness at the end of a long working day. None of these things can be bought.

kim147 · 14/09/2012 08:04

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

scottishmummy · 14/09/2012 08:18

the prosperous and secure dismiss money and fripperies because theyre secure and have it .precious moments matter most.smile of a baby,birds singing in meadow. imo thats sentimental tosh worthy of clintons cards

a full fridge,not being worried about money,spontaneity cash can bring these things matter considerably too

and tbh if you're not working you don't earn the money so do you really appreciate it's worth and the effort required to earn it?

if the salaried partner returned home tonight said,oh dear lost me job.would the honest reply be but hey it's only money.not most important thing...I don't think so
I value my possessions because I worked hard for them, I studied hard. it's important to me to be solvent and not financially dependent upon a partner.

I will bring my children up to work hard,value money they earn and value the non moneytary things too

Greythorne · 14/09/2012 08:44

This (longish) blog post is really worth reading in the context of
This discussion:

Free but not cheap

Jessica Valenti just wrote a new book called Why Have Kids?: A New Mom Explores the Truth About Parenting and Happiness, and wrote a piece for Babble summarizing her main argument in the book, which is that we keep saying "Motherhood is the most important job in the world," but at the same time we undervalue it enormously. She buries what I think is the most important point in the last paragraph of the Babble piece, which is that motherhood isn't a job, it's a relationship.

If we think it's a job, then nothing makes sense about it. How is it possible that it's so important but also so undervalued? How is it possible to be a good mother if you're with your kids 24/7 but also be a good mother if you leave them to go work for a good part of the day? How can we take such satisfaction from being with our kids but be so bored by all the stuff we have to do for our kids?

But motherhood makes sense when you realize that it's a relationship. Loving and nurturing your child is the relationship you have with your child. That's why when you have a bad day as an adult, you still want your mom (if you have a good relationship with your mom) even though she isn't making your meals, changing your clothes for you, driving you to work, or doing any of the stuff moms of kids do.

All the stuff that has to be done for kids, though, those things are jobs. Changing diapers, researching carseats, driving to soccer practice, washing clothes, catching vomit with your hand, putting to bed, filling out forms, searching out a replacement wubbie on the internet, making lunches, making dinner, making breakfast, making snacks. Many of those tasks are not that brain-intensive, and are not valued highly, across all societies. That's why a) motherhood sucks so much, b) it's devalued so much, and c) wealthy women have always outsourced as many of those tasks as they could, until recently, so they got the relationship but not the jobs.

What we were talking about last week in the discussion of how motherhood changes who we are, and what Randi Buckley helps women figure out in her Maybe Baby program, is this: Do you want the relationship enough to suffer through the jobs?

And that's not a small question. The jobs almost break some of us. The jobs almost break almost all of us with kids under 3. And how you come through the jobs as your children age and the jobs change is not guaranteed, and it's different for everyone.

Some people like, or don't mind, the jobs of raising children. Some people really do not like them at all. We shouldn't be judging women for wanting to stay at home to do the jobs of raising children if they want to. Nor should we be judging women for wanting to do another job while someone else does the jobs associated with her children. That would be like judging someone who is a dentist because she's not a fashion designer and vice versa.

But we do need to make sure that the jobs associated with raising children are valued, financially and socially. We need protections for SAH parents. Protections and better wages for paid caregivers. And respect for everyone who does the jobs of raising children. It's not the hardest thing I've ever done, but doing the jobs of raising children (I was a stay-at-home mom for 5 years) was the most intense sustained thing I have ever done. It makes me exhausted and sad just thinking about some of those periods of unending work, and I hear the exhaustion and overwork from youespecially those of you with little kidsand the suck of the intensity.

But the relationship... That's why old ladies come up to us when we're half dead with a 6-week-old strapped to our lopsided leaky chests as we're waddling into the drugstore at 7 am to buy more diapers and say, "Enjoy this time!" They don't remember the jobs. They don't know it, but what they really mean is "Enjoy this person, this relationship that you're starting and that's only going to get better but also more complicated, and this love that will make you hurt and make you vibrate with the rest of the universe. Your boobs will stop leaking and diapers are only for a short time and you will survive, but this relationship is your chance to be better than just yourself."

That's what those old ladies mean. And why they can't stop themselves from saying things to stressed-out strangers. Seeing us with teeny babies and a new relationship makes them think of their own children, their own relationships. And they want that same thing for us.

So. The jobs, well, they never end, so you get a million chances to screw up or to dominate. And if you have the chance to do the jobs you want to do, whether they're kid-raising jobs or some other jobs, you should do them. Don't feel guilty about making the best choice for you. But at the same time, we all have to fight like hell so that we can all have the choice to do the jobs that we want to do and are best suited for. Because if we're doing things that make us feel useful and fulfilled, the relationship becomes free and unburdened. The intensity without the grind. And weand our childrendeserve that.

www.askmoxie.org/2012/09/free-but-not-cheap.html

amillionyears · 14/09/2012 08:48

I agree with most of your post sm.
some people are more sentimental than others.so long as there is enough caring going on,beyond that it doesnt matter.
Agreed that with money,need it,but dont need masses to be content.

I do realise that if you did not have much or enough growing up,that you come from a different perspective.I think I read that Cherie Blair grew up like that,and says she worries about money all the time.She says enough is never enough as she is always afraid that it will all be lost,and she will be left with nothing again.Very sad.

Dont agree about the "not financially dependent upon a partner".It can and does work in a lot of cases.

scottishmummy · 14/09/2012 08:49

no,sahp don't need protection.if they want an additional financial buffer get a job
the ole ladies who stop you,yes that was touching.kind strangers are heartwarming
but find the article schmaltzy American