Women subsumed into their children

[Xenia]

We certainly must guard against woman as only mother and nothing else

www.ft.com/cms/s/2/0bf95f3c-f234-11e1-bba3-00144feabdc0.html#axzz25Ieiea9E

I am guilty of having blonde ds as my profile picture. I work full time in a professional role and have three children . I am a feminist. I am not subsumed into my children, I just chose the freakin pic cos I do not like pics of myself as my eyes are always shut. I love Xenia and yet still feel guilty about not wanting to be a sahm, I would be a sham if I stayed at home. Judge away Professor whats-yer-face, but more guilt is not what any woman needs!

The reality of my life is that there are many things that matter and the children are a big part of it. You can earn a lot of money, have hobbies and have good relationships with your children. Success is certainly a mixture of things but having enough money as a woman does ease the path and too many girls pick low paid work and regret it later when they have to crowd on to credit crunch threads as they gave up work and have no income and are rooting around in Aldi for the cheapest beans.

I like Chandon's post too.

I think you have a point Xenia in so far as women should think about incomings as well as outgoings when considering finances and lifestyle.

Nothing wrong with looking for the cheapest beans though !

Xenia,you seem to have set out with the idea that the man might leave at some point which he did. Do you think it can be self fulfilling in some way[cant think of the right word]
I think,and I could be wrong,that women nowadays still think that the men will stay. I dont know what the divorce figures are nowadays,about 50%.
It is a much healthier mindset to think you will both stay together.And enter into it all as a team.

given divorce rate it's sensible to make financial provision
and not be dependent wholly upon partner.or give up work
it's not self fulfilling to acknowledge divorce,it's sensible

Amillion I disagree with you there. When making the decision if one partner will be an SAHP and if so, which, both partners should be aware of the financial risks to them as a couple and individually, just as they should be aware of the care implications to them as a couple and individually (ie if they break up the SAHP is likely to remain as primary carer).

You can be firmly convinced it isn't going to happen in your heart but be aware in your head of scenarios if it did.

Perhaps I come at things from a different angle.My DH and I own a joint business with joint assets,everything joint.
So if we were to have split when the kids were younger,or even now,everything is 50/50,or more in my favour I suppose and presume if I were to have had the kids.
Is that different to everyone else?

50% of marriages break up. In most cases it is the woman initiating that as in my case. Marriage tend to be better and happier where both partners work as there is more equality and fairness.

I dont understand Xenia.You and your husband both worked.And your marriage broke up.So are you saying you broke the trend?

Well, for us me being a SAHM for a few years really worked.

The difference with you (Xenia), is that I do not think everyone should live like me, or take my example. I have friends who went back to work after a few weeks.

The thing I agree on is (as mentioned above by amillionyears) the mindset to make it work.

But I also agree with Xenia on financial independence, and I am not sure I would have been happy to be a SAHM without a monthly income (i have a property I rent out, which is in my name, which generated some income for me, even when I did not work).

I just think people need to decide for themselves, we all lead such different lives! And being subsumed in your kids can be a lovely stage of life...

I'm extremely career driven. I knw to be happy, I'll need a career.

However it is still the dream' to have my amazing career and spend a few years being a SAHM. I want ( if financially able, who knows what the future holds?) To be able to stay at home with my child/ren until they're at least in kinder.

Doesn't make me any less driven by my need to have a career, financial independence and to use the cringeowrthy, patronising phrase, 'a life of my own.'

Everyone has different dreams. I no more begrudge WAHM, SAHM, or WOHM.

I believe every mother (at least on this forum) is doing what they feel is best not only for their child/ren...But for them. I know a few SAHM who have started small businesses sewing children's toys or found the time to have 'their own identity' than before they were parents. I guess I've just never met a SAHM who didn't have a life of her own. Even if she didn't and her life revolved around her kids...So what?

IMO the point isn't 'women shouldn't be SAHM, or talk about their kids all the time, or not have many interests outside their kids. IMO the real feminist point is that motherhood should be valued and at the very least fucking respected! That doesn't mean everyone needs to be facinated by toddler/children talk, but there are many things I am not interested by. So what?

IMO the reason society vilifies the concept of SAHMing is because society itself hasn't reached a point where we can value motherhood as an exclusively female thing. Therefore the patriarchy even ha women believing SAHM are a failure.

Disclaimer
I know there are SAHD's, but they cannot become pregnant, feel that bond and give birth. They cannot breastfeed which to society is looked down upon, yet some mothers do it anyway.

This post is not to devalue SAHMD's, but to explain my opinion on why being a mother should be something to greatly, greatly respect.

P.S. I don't agree with making your child your profile picture for safety reasons, nothing really to do with feminism.

Rxcuse all the typos.

My breastfeeding comment wa not meant to sound so flippant, I just meant that even though so many men (and women, sadly) view breastfeeding as a 'behind closed doors' activity, I admire the women who just say fuck it and whip em out. I'm obviously yet to know if BFing is for me, and my mother chose to FF, but it is still a courageous thing to do in this society.

EXCUSE!!!!

Gives up and hides in shame corner

even though so many men (and women, sadly) view breastfeeding as a 'behind closed doors' activity, I admire the women who just say fuck it and whip em out. I'm obviously yet to know if BFing is for me, and my mother chose to FF, but it is still a courageous thing to do in this society

not that I think it is weird, I am just aware that others will, but that is another topic

Erm I was of the whip em out brigade when it came to bfing. That was the norm before breasts were overtly sexualised. I am only friends with very good friends on facebook so the pic of my child doesnt compromise safety etc.

I fed on demand until my DC both self weaned at around 18 months. I too did it everywhere, and only had a few tuts and negative comments. It was a v positive experience for me and my DC. I also hoped that I was enabling other women to feel comfortable about it too.

Lurking, you'll find it's dead easy to breastfeed . In fact if you are middle class you will be treated like some negligent pariah if you don't breastfeed. Thankfully middle England has no problems with naked breasts. I spent years hoping someone would stop me feeding my 5 in public and I never once had the satisfaction of saying my piece back to them. I went back to work 2 weeks after the babies and breastfed. Even 28 years ago there was a really good book on how to work and breastfeed which I bought and used and they all fed fto 1 year to 2 years. My mother was one of the first NCT members in 1960 and I suppose generations had been breastfed too.

Very sadly the lower your income and class in the UK the harder it is to find breastfeeding accepted yet if you look at art , all those gorgeous paintings of mother and child feeding it is simply the norm.

I have been watching fathers with babies whilst I swam this afternoon. of course they weren't breastfeeding them but they were doing just about everything else and looked as bonded as any mother to me.

PS

The other point yes it helps if women keep income streams/work and indeed plenty of us earn 10x what our men do. Women onl,y earn less than men in 2012 if they go part time or stop working. Until that happens at the moment we tend to have better qualifications, more degrees and make up 60%+ of new entrants to many professions from I think medicine to law. Indeed there is a new US book about how we are moving into an age where men are not needed at all - reviewed in today's papers. The thesis is we have enough stored frozen sperm now forever and men are just not up to many new jobs requring skills women have and they don't and that loads of cultures now are based around a woman who earns and brings up children choosing not to have a man.

"plenty of us earn 10x what our men do ". No,that is rubbish
And you say that to show off.

"Men not needed at all". haha
I cant see you or the vast majority of women down a mine,working in agriculture,fishing,in the energy sectors etc etc.All the dirty jobs. Yes women can be trained eventually,but production is also going to slow,and make the industries less competitive.

Much more opening of your eyes to the world as a whole and not just to the tiny part that you see and want so badly to see.

Xenia, that remark about working class women and breastfeeding is a load of rubbish! My sister and I are both working class and breastfed (12 and six months respectively) and never encountered any negative attitudes to breast feeding from our working class peers. I've talked about the topic numerous times with working class friends and colleagues, and I've never encountered anyone who didn't "accept" breast feeding women- some not to chose to for personal reasons but none at all were disparaging towards me or others who did. What an odd remark.

Xenia you state that women only earn less than men in 2012 if they choose to go part time or stop working, could you please post a link to the statistics that prove your point as I have a very hard time believing that.

www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2011/nov/27/young-women-earning-more-men

www.ic.nhs.uk/webfiles/publications/003_Health_Lifestyles/IFS_2010_early_results/Infant_Feeding_Survey_2010_headline_report2.pdf see 2.2.2 in there - incidence of breastfeeding highest amongst women of managerial and professional occupations (although others are doing much better than they were).

Womien have more degrees and better A levels and GCSEs and earn more than men in the UK until they have babies, choose to play second fiddle to a man, 4 in 5 marry up someone who earns more presumably because subconsciously they want a meal ticket. That hopefully willchange and it will be as attractive no a date for a man to say I want to stop work when babies come as if a woman were to say that and she will say - that's fine I am happy to be the sole earner.

Hang on.In your post of 10.15am you said "marriage tend to be better and happier where both partners work as there is more equality and fairness"