Should it be illegal for men to pay for prostitution?

[EatsBrainsAndLeaves]

Should we criminalise all men who pay for prostitution, alongside help for women to leave prostituion?

70% of sex workers are mothers. And I'm sure, like you, for many it pays the bills from more generous wages and affords more time with childrenTo blanket ban prostitution you have to address all underlying causes, I do not think any organisation or individual has the ability to do this

'Gender equality will remain unattainable so long as men buy, sell and exploit women and children by prostituting them'.

YY to that.

I think really I'd reserve judgement on the Swedish model, it seems to be ambiguous as to whether it is actually having an overall positive effect. Violence against women has gone up in one Swedish citiy not down according to Swedish police, sex workers report worse conditions and increase in risk, some reports suggest the prostitution has risen in other Nordic countries as a result.

What about the Menz, eh?

Male prostitutes would be afforded the same protections in law as females- ie. it isnt a criminal act to sell sex.

Males and females buying sex is criminalised. But since the vast majority of customers to both male and female prostitutes are men, and as the vast majority of prostituted are female, it is regarded as a gendered issue.

And no-one is claiming that there are no male prostitutes.

That is a strawman.

Prostitution is gendered.

For the hard of thinking, that means that the predators are mainly men and the preyed upon are mainly women (and children).

I doubt there are many people who would try to claim otherwise.

A minority of male prostitutes does not change the above.

SabrinaMulhollandJones Wed 12-Sep-12 12:32:51
What about the Menz, eh?

No, pointing out flaws in a model (Nordic) isn't about the menz.
The issue is about devaluing (perhaps) people.

Obviously, as this is FWR some posters here will have a gendered perspective.

The issue is can be viewed from more than one perspective, and a poor model doesn't help that.

'Having the will to try is a good start'

Yy to that.

The punters, the pimps, the traffickers, even some prostitutes, have a vested interest in keeping the status quo. They would, wouldn't they? They don't want anything as fluffy or unattainable as gender equality, to get in the way of a nice little earner, or their nice little hobby.

So they brush the violence, the trafficking and all that under the carpet - and just go on and on about how 'this won't work' or how 'some women want to be prostitutes'

Pah.

xenia are you some kind of weirdo. I'm not sure I've read any of posts before this thread, but they sound seriously odd.

Are you a mother and do you have children? If so, I feel sorry for them.

Why are you so narked by 'housewives'. I work almost fulltime and earn the same if not more than him. If I were suddenly made redundant and had to be a housewife for a while are you saying that would change mine and dp's sex life? Would he suddenly 'expect' more because he was paying all the bills? What about if he lost his job, how would that work? Would he become my sex slave in exchange for me keeping a roof over his head? Ludicrous.

And do you really believe all men discuss their sex life with other men? Really? Like yeah, when you are about 19 yes.

Onemorechap your post was a what about the Menz post as they often are

The piece I quoted in italics was the basis for the passing of the Swedish laws- it wd not written by FWR.

carmenelectra Wed 12-Sep-12 12:45:29
And do you really believe all men discuss their sex life with other men?

Ooh, I know this one!
a) no more than all women discuss their sex lives with other women
b) there are probably equal number of liars in both genders

Summerflower,
do you live in the real world or just inhabit some utopian dream based on your own ideals?

There you go again assuming that I as a prostitute are looking for sympathy, I'm not, neither am I looking for someone to blame for my current position.

My posts are not excuses just how I see the world from a broad perspective, we have had over 2000 years to engineer a fair and just society, it just hasn't happened and I do not believe it ever will and this is down to the individual and soceity failings as a whole.
We can try to make the world a better place, but I just think you are very naive to ignore all that has gone before.
In a previous post I mentioned being a martyr, so just because of your moral objection I should just accept my lot in life?
It wouldn't surprise me if you are the kind of person who looks down her nose at what you would consider to be benefit scrounging, teenage single parents, as did I until I grew up!
Of course we can try but, when I hear 'I want to end world poverty and find world peace' just sounds like the ramblings of someone who has no idea what life is like outside their closeted upbringing.

I think most sane person would agree that exploiting the vulnerable is wrong, and this is currently illegal in prostitution anyway.
I hope that every time you step out of the house, make a purchase, use any product that you consider how many vulnerable people were exploited along the way.
Example; We buy into Fairtrade because we think the producers are getting a fair deal, take a closer look and you may be surprised that the truth is somewhat different to the marketing.

SabrinaMulhollandJones

Have you heard yourself? You claim to be fighting for the rights of women, but only those women that agree with you?
For some women it is a way out of poverty very patronising that you just see it as 'a nice little earner'.
I just hope you go out of your way to ensure nothing that you do/buy/think has any links with the exploitation of anyone else.

I think we could have a try at at least working towards a utopian world- certainly in terms of equality, avaboosmummy. Given the choice of that, or just sticking with the status quo 'because that's how it's always been', I'd go for the former.

Btw, the 'nice little earner' was completely directed at the pimps and traffickers who profit from prostituting women and children.

Of course we should try, it's just that I feel starting with prostitution as a stand alone problem is just too simplistic.
At the end of the day we have laws to deter this that and the other, if criminalising everything meant people would suddenly start thinking differently then no one would dare step out of line in a country that has the death penalty?
After all the equality laws we currently have, it doesn't stop the prejudice of women in the workplace. We still have women sidelined due to children/maternity at all levels, from cleaner to high flyer.
I do not believe that a group of people banding together to tell everyone else what's right and wrong helps change mindsets.
Maybe if women in prostitution were empowered and the feminists stand back and help prostitution to become female lead don't you think that would also send out a message that women have control.
I just hear that the balance of power within prostitution isn't with the prostitutes so perhaps taking steps to make sure they have the power is better than taking making a morality decision likely to upset the current economic status of those the feminists are trying to protect?

onemorechap

What I meant to say was men don't discuss details of their lives if in a long term relationship or marriage. Yes of course they do if its a casual gf or perhaps one night stand.

Same with women. I do sometimes discuss my sex life on a very superficial level or in a jokey lighthearted way. With no disrespect to my dp. When I was 18 and it was a more casual thing then I may have been a bit more graphic! And I guess its just the same with men. I doubt very much my very very long term dp would even of dream of discussing me in an intimate way with his friends.

I'm not sure we are 'starting with prostitution' in terms of fighting inequality- but it is an important part. This thread is about prostitution - which is why it's being discussed.

But I don't think you can just say 'oh society's so awful'' or that legislation won't work. Legislation does work- it can't be a magic, instant 'cure all ills' to society, but it has meant that women are now entitled to equal opportunities and equal pay in the workplace - with proper legal redress if your employer breaks the law.

That legislation was hard won by feminists in the 60's and 70's and if they had just sat around saying 'oh society will never change' they wouldn't have been passed.

Some feminists will argue in favour of prostitution being a woman's individual choice.

But, in my mind I just can't equate that to the problem that if it is acceptable to buy sex from an individual woman, then there will be profiteers wanting to exploit that. Then we get the pimps and the traffickers...

Pointing out the flaws in the Nordic model always seems to come back to vague claims about prostitution being more dangerous, driven underground, etc.
Considering how dangerous and underground prostitution already is, I find that hard to believe.

These claims always seem to come from very similar sources - those who lobby under the label of 'sex worker activists'. Most of these people are pimps.

Well, tbh, Avaboos, I'm not sure how the fact that I'd rather campaign against female inequality than accept that selling one's body should be a socially acceptable response to it means that I live in rainbow la-la land.

But yes, maybe sympathy was the wrong word, understanding of your position might have been phrasing it better.

Beachcomber Wed 12-Sep-12 13:34:43
Pointing out the flaws in the Nordic model always seems to come back to vague claims about prostitution being more dangerous, driven underground

... except when it doesn't; the flaw in the model quoted is it ignored a whole class of prostitutes, and a small number of users.

avaboosmummy, you absolutely don't have to answer this question of course, but are you a domme?

(No worries if you don't want to answer.)

As my previous examples show, legislation forces conformity rather than changes minds.
The point being exactly that, women are now entitled to equal opps and pay, doesn't mean they always get it, doesn't mean women of child bearing age are not passed over for jobs or promotion, things like this can e very difficult to prove.
I've taken an employer to a tribunal for racial and sexual discrimination, I understand the process, it can be lengthy drawn out with no guarantee of victory.
Do you think that this action changed anything for anyone else apart from I get a pay out? The man in question kept his job and I probably reinforced his outdated ideas of women in the workplace.

I just don't know how many more 1000's of years you think we need to get it right.
I just figure you can't make a silk purse from a sow's ear.

So if you can't accept that some women choose prostitution (unless you wish to imply all prostitutes are incapable of deciding that) then there is little point in contributing to a debate when you have already made your mind up.
If your issue then lies with profiteers looking to exploit it, then why not seek a way to get rid of the pimps, traffickers whilst allowing women to make their own choices.

Beachcomber,

sometimes!

Most of these people are pimps

lol.

Well in this case at least, they're far from vague if you read / watch them, they're quite specific about how the new laws have increased risk in their job. I think they, like avaboosmummy are well worth listening to and taking their opinions on board.