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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

See all MNHQ comments on this thread

Should it be illegal for men to pay for prostitution?

999 replies

EatsBrainsAndLeaves · 31/08/2012 11:13

Should we criminalise all men who pay for prostitution, alongside help for women to leave prostituion?

OP posts:
avaboosmummy · 11/09/2012 23:43

runningforthebusinheels

So presumably you are 100% perfect and no one would ever find fault in anything you do/think?

getmorenappies · 11/09/2012 23:46

Ava........

If you type a * before and at the immidiate end of a quote..

You get this

Or quotes. It just helps to follow what you're responding to for dummies like me. :)

mcmooncup · 11/09/2012 23:46

You can only feel like someone is being condescending if you let them.

Was that condescending enough? [wink}

I don't mean to be condescending. Genuinely.

runningforthebusinheels · 12/09/2012 00:27

Avaboo, nobody can claim to be perfect, but accusations of the sort you made aren't helpful to a debate.

I do think that criminalising the buying of sex would be good for society- because the men who use prostitutes would be sent a clear message that women are not commodities.

Titty, your post about rape victims not reporting was horribly dismissive, and your next post did backpedal somewhat.

Xenia · 12/09/2012 07:20

If you criminalise the buying of sex then you probably also need to ban men who buy shoes and expensive meals for new girl friends surely. How would you draw your line and what about women like lots of mumsnettesr who do not earn a penny and are kept by men? It would just be far too complicated (and unfair on women choosing to make a livingi n a way they want with their own bodies which are their property) and in my view anti feminist to ban it.

runningforthebusinheels · 12/09/2012 07:24

Don't be ridiculous Xenia.

exoticfruits · 12/09/2012 08:18

Do you really believe this garbage, Xenia?!! You didn't answer my question of yesterday.

OneMoreChap · 12/09/2012 08:52

runningforthebusinheels Wed 12-Sep-12 00:27:35
I do think that criminalising the buying of sex would be good for society- because the men who use prostitutes would be sent a clear message that women are not commodities.

Here, let me fix that for you:
I do think that criminalising the buying of sex would be good for society- because the people who use prostitutes would be sent a clear message that people are not commodities.

Remember, not all punters are men, and not all prostitutes are women.
It is prostitution you have a problem with, not men. Surely?

avaboosmummy · 12/09/2012 10:00

runningforthebusinheels

I'm sorry if my comment was directed personally at you. However as the only current escort commenting on this thread I am somewhat outnumbered and it appears that anything I say just isn't taken seriously.
It is the constant posturing about men using prostitutes and then how that effects equality for women as a whole.
I don't think you can blame me for wondering where the contributors problems lie, I'm unconvinced that this is purely to be taken in the altruistic form of wanting to help vulnerable women because at the same time it ignores those doing it through choice and assumes all men consider sex as an entitlement.
As IP said, not all pro's are female, not all punters are male, or shall we just ignore this fact as it doesn't fit with the argument.
As for the contributors working with former pro's, of course they only see the negative side as they are helping women who want to leave prostitution.
I'm just not sure how everything can be so black and white/cut and dried with some of you.
In my opinion it just shows an extraordinary amount of naivity and fails to acknowlege people are different and not just carbon copies of each other.
I fail to see how taking an option of earning an income away from women that chose to prostitute for whatever reason will somehow stop those that who are forced into, which is illegal anyway.
No one knows how many women are happy working, no one really knows how many women aren't, until you ask every single one this will never be a fair debate, because on the one hand you want to empower these women, but at the same time seemingly implying that all women working as pro's have no voice.
How do you ever expect men to have respect for women, when other women do not respect another womens right to choice?

avaboosmummy · 12/09/2012 10:02

Sorry not IP but OMC

avaboosmummy · 12/09/2012 10:09

Titty, your post about rape victims not reporting was horribly dismissive, and your next post did backpedal somewhat.

I agree with what Titty is saying about why rape is under reported as the victims feel they won't be believed or will have to take the stand in court and have part of the blame levied at them by the perps defence.
It's not being dismissive just perhaps an account of what actually happens in this cruel world we live in.

Beachcomber · 12/09/2012 10:14

You know, I always think in discussions like these, there is a marked difference between people's perspectives - and that is why we disagree on fundamentals.

My opinion is that the different perspectives are largely split into people who conceive of prostitution on an individual basis and people who see it as an institution, a manifestation of female oppression/male domination, a gendered issue and a form of violence against women.

I'm guessing that those who conceive of prostitution on an individual (even post-modern) level, see prostitution as an option. A choice. Something that a person can use to make money should the need ever arise. Perhaps it is even seen as a security, something to fall back on if necessary. Yes, there are risks and unpleasant aspects to the activity, so if you give it a go, and find that you are not suited to the work, you should walk away from it and do something else. Everyone knows there can be risks so you should choose your punters carefully, report any bad behaviour and be responsible for yourself. Criminalising this activity (which is not what is being argued for on this thread) takes away a person's civil liberty to earn their living this way.

Which sounds sort of plausible until you look at the reality of the majority of prostitution.

First off, the majority of the world's prostitutes are women - so this is clearly a gendered issue (and a gendered issue that arises in male dominated society). The majority of these women wish to leave prostitution.

The vast vast majority of johns are men - this is clearly a gendered issue, and, as we live in male dominated society, clearly a power/dominance issue.

Prostitution is global, it is a global activity which generates HUGE sums of money. Massive sums of which go to pimps, brother owners, traffickers, male partners, drug dealers, organised crime, and, in some countries, the state. We are clearly in the realms of an institution.

There are patterns of power in prostitution which reflect the power structures of wider society (essentially class, sex, age and race hierarchies). This is clearly a societal issue, not an individualistic one.

There are patterns of male violence against women in prostitution, which manifest as magnified versions of patterns of male violence against women that exist in wider society (domestic abuse, childhood abuse, emotional abuse, rape, battery, sexual and economic exploitation, the feminization of poverty, submission/dominance paradigms, gender binary hierarchy, male entitlement, male privilege, grooming, etc). This is clearly an extension of male violence against women that exists at a 'domestic' level in society and is being taken to a class level.

If you want to know how humane a society is, look at how it treats its most vulnerable. If you want to know how misogynistic a society is, look at how it treats its most vulnerable women.

Prostitution is symbolic of women's status in society.

A minority of individual women may buck that trend. Good for them. But just as they do not wish others to speak for them, the 'othered' women in prostitution must be listened to and not have their voices and experiences denied.

And, unfortunately, we have to be careful who we listen to - what with so much money being involved and all.

The reality is that there are not enough girls and women in the world who freely choose prostitution to fulfil the demand created by the johns. So, in step the pimps and traffickers to supply girls and women, and by doing so they make a lot of money. And society pretty much turns a blind eye - it's only women after all.

getmorenappies · 12/09/2012 10:28

avaboosmummy I think the thing is, on here, you are mostly in debate ( and I use that loosely ) against people who share a 'radical' feminist ideology.

i.e. Prostitution only exists because of the patriarchy and it's product of male entitlement and lack of choice and earnings for women.

You are I think an inconvenient voice as you have made your peace with your profession, don't see yourself as a victim and are not where you are due to abuse or drug addiction.

I think your well-being is secondary to the ideology.

Having read a fair amount about the Swedish laws in the last couple of days I have to say the actual sex workers seem to be the most unhappy with the new laws.

70% of sex workers are mothers. And I'm sure, like you, for many it pays the bills from more generous wages and affords more time with children.

You can bet your bottom dollar that if these laws came into effect here and your client base dissipated you and all the other sex workers would have very little state support.

Personally in this debate I give more credence to your views and experience than those outside of the industry. Ditto for Sweden.

Here is a quote from a Swedish sex worker.....

However, Swedish sex workers disagree that the law has been beneficial. "It has made it physically more dangerous to work," says Pye Jakobson, a 40-year-old prostitute in Stockholm. "Health-wise, it is riskier because more clients ask to have sex without a condom, because they know some women are desperate for cash and will do things they would have refused before. And we are socially isolated because we are forced to work alone. Those who work indoors, like me, would often share flats with colleagues, but we don't any more as it might attract too much attention. So we don't have each other for support, and we're alone if problems arise

The Guardian

Another interesting Guardian article is here

getmorenappies · 12/09/2012 10:30

I think your well-being is secondary to the ideology.

I mean on the thread, I don't think that personally

avaboosmummy · 12/09/2012 10:47

Beachcomber

I do hear what you are saying in this post.
But what came first, prostitution or society? Are you saying we live in a humane society? Can you demonstrate an example of a humane society that isn't swayed by individual people?
I hear your agument but it's like saying make drugs illegal as the damage they do to the majority isn't worth the civil liberty of recreational uses, wait a minute they are illegal, and the problems caused by them still exist.
We have needle exchange to help addicts use safely, despite the fact that heroin is illegal?
How will criminalising prostitution help women unless you are willing to pour the time and resources into making everyones lives better? We simply don't have the resource, just like we don't have the resources to rehabilitate all drug users. And not all drug users want rehabilitating.
As I said before, accept prostitution exists and how to make it better for the women involved is a fair better use of resource than trying to force ideals upon an imperfect world.
To blanket ban prostitution you have to address all underlying causes, I do not think any organisation or individual has the ability to do this.

Prostitution is symbolic of women's status in society.
Perhaps this isn't limited to how men see them, but also other women's prejudice

avaboosmummy · 12/09/2012 11:02

getmorenappies

I agree completely, because to fully rid the world of prostitution you also have to put forward valid alternatives for all engaged in it.
I believe that perhaps the equal redistribution of wealth would carry more weight in heading towards a fairer society than blaming all female inequality on prostitution.

tittytittyhanghang · 12/09/2012 11:26

running my second post just reiterates my first post so hardly backpedalling as you call it. Its not dismissive, its the reality. There are not many woman who do not report rape because they think that the man had the right to rape them, which is what you said. Most woman know that rape is wrong. Or they do where I come from. Unfortunately that doesn't stop men carrying out the act.

runningforthebusinheels · 12/09/2012 11:34

Beachcomber has hit the nail on the head I think. Nothing more to add.

getmorenappies · 12/09/2012 11:39

avaboosmummy . Yes equal redistribution of wealth is known to produce happier societies. Ours seems to be coming more and more unequal and fractured across the board. I find it hard to come to terms with the amount of children living in poverty in the UK whilst others collect multi-million pound bonuses for causing financial havoc .

But I'm not sure that prostitution would be eradicated unless we lived in a communist society and I'm not a big fan of that.

These issues are of course hugely complicated and there isn't a convenient 'one rule suits all' solution.

runningforthebusinheels · 12/09/2012 11:51

Titty, the reason I took issue with your post (and still do) is that you dismissed the reasons that rape is under reported as being because women don't want to go through the legal process of a conviction- which is a huge over simplification- and implies that it is down to the victims laziness, for want of a better word, that it is not reported.

The reporting and conviction process for rape can be horrific- and probably does play a part in some women's choices not to report, bit I thought your post was overly dismissive in that it didn't take any account of women's experience of rape when it falls outside of the 'stranger rape in an alley' scenario. A lot of date rapes, marital rapes, sex while asleep, drunk rapes etc occur in a way that the victim will often blame themselves for the situation. As in the 'degrees of rape' argument - people think that a rape happening within a relationship isn't 'real rape'. Many people in society will back this up- as in the ched Evans and assange cases.

I thought your post insulting- but this thread isn't about rape reporting, so I'll leave it now.

tittytittyhanghang · 12/09/2012 11:55

You are implying laziness, i am implying nothing of the sort.

SabrinaMulhollandJones · 12/09/2012 12:10

Tittytittybangbang, I read your post the same as running, sorry.

I also thought beach's post was spot on.

The Swedish model is based on this:

' In Sweden prostitution is regarded as an aspect of male violence against women and children. It is officially acknowledged as a form of exploitation of women and children and constitutes a significant social problem... Gender equality will remain unattainable so long as men buy, sell and exploit women and children by prostituting them.

Amen to that.

SabrinaMulhollandJones · 12/09/2012 12:15

Funnily enough I'm listening to woman's hour on r4 - and they're talking about the sex trafficking of children. This issue cannot be ignored just because dome women want to, and do well out of prostitution- you can't separate the issues.

OneMoreChap · 12/09/2012 12:21

SabrinaMulhollandJones Wed 12-Sep-12 12:10:45
The Swedish model is based on this:

' In Sweden prostitution is regarded as an aspect of male violence against women and children. It is officially acknowledged as a form of exploitation of women and children and constitutes a significant social problem... Gender equality will remain unattainable so long as men buy, sell and exploit women and children by prostituting them.

Interesting!
So no male prostitution in Sweden then?

It's been an issue for years in the UK, "celebrated" by Ned Sherrin and openly discussed by Rupert Everett (who was a rentboy)

Beachcomber · 12/09/2012 12:26

Of course life can't be perfect for everyone all of the time.

The point of criminalising the buying of sex (not the selling of sex) is for society to clearly state that it is not acceptable for predators to profit from or exploit the vulnerable. It is not ok for there to be a class of women who are sexually used by men.

No-one is naive enough to think that that will be enough to eradicate prostitution.

But it is a start.

It is a start that recognises the harms of prostitution. That acknowledges the gender inequality; the sexism, the classism, the racism.

Surely better than being defeatist and shaking one's head and saying 'nope, nothing to be done, some women just are expendable and have to put up with a shitty lot so that the johns get their rocks off.'

So much human misery for a fucking orgasm.

Except it isn't just about orgasms. It is mostly about money (huge sums of money) with a bunch of power, entitlement and misogyny thrown in (as per usual in male dominated society).