Should it be illegal for men to pay for prostitution?

[EatsBrainsAndLeaves]

Should we criminalise all men who pay for prostitution, alongside help for women to leave prostituion?

Consuela - the Swedish laws don't ban prostitution. And a key factor to the success of the policy is education for the police and the public and support for women who wish to leave prostitution.

There is no stigma placed on the prostitutes. The stigma is placed where it belongs - on the john's, pimps and traffickers.

avaboosmummy, AFAIK, a lot of feminists who support moves to make buying sex illegal, are former prostitutes. Andrea Dworkin who is credited with being one of the first people to envisage a policy which criminalises the buyers and treats buying sex as predatory behaviour, which is both violence against women, and a barrier to gender equality, was a former prostitute. Of course not all prostitutes support such policies and not all feminists are prostitutes, former or otherwise. I think there is a pretty big overlap though.

If you were to come to the centre I volunteer in, and asked for help to exit prostitution, you would be asked what you needed and every attempt would be made to provide you with it - these needs vary from woman to woman. Some need help with substance abuse, some need a safe space away from a pimp/abusive relationship. Some women need training/a job, nearly all women need childcare. All the woman I have had contact with needed someone to listen. Really listen.

Consuelaa, to be frank, you seem confused as to what the Swedish policy entails for someone who seems so sure it doesn't work.

is an interesting interview with a Swedish sex worker and her views on the law.

@Beachcomber did you see my last post? Some sexworkers themselves in Sweden are saying the law is stigmatizing them as "weak, dirty, mentally ill, addicted to drugs and alcohol and viewed as a victim".

Consuelaa that's pretty much what the woman in the interview / link above says. Leading to sex workers loosing their homes and children.

thanks for the link getmorenappies I'll have a watch.

There are always going to be people critical for whatever reason- most have a vested interest in the sex industry in some way. Or are very dubious writers like Petra ostergren

But the large majority of swedes want these laws to stay- that mist day something.

*must

"[Money has] Nothing to do with fuckin' freedom. If you think you're free, try going somewhere without fucking money, okay?"

Bill Hicks.

I just popped over to Cuntersnet and see there is a thing called "a girlfriend experience". Apparently prostituted women must act like good little girlfriends and they are rated on this talent (this whole concept of rating is a 'brilliant' way of keeping the prostituted women in line and behaving correctly). But this 'girlfriend experience' thing really does tap into what has been said already on the thread that the money is coercing the behaviour, and the behaviour must be one of compliance, punter must believe she wants to be here.

Yet then my head goes all funny at this point, because punter is paying her to pretend to be like a girlfriend, like someone who wants to do this...........but she doesn't want to do it, she is doing it only for the money, because her choices are limited.......oh so does that mean punter might actually be sort of bribing someone, blackmailing them to behave as punter wants them to?

I detest men who try and justify their abuse of women.

I wish I could see a photo or even better a small video clip of some of these guys posting on here.

Then do a survey of 1000 women and ask them if they would spend 10 hours locked in a hotel room with them......FOR FREE.........listening to their fucking pathetic woes and sucking their filthy nobs.

I would also like to ask the women on here who have worked as sex workers what their first experience was like?

It's only "bribing someone" if paying for any services is bribing. Probably female chicken plucker factory workers are not that happy plucking their chickens. We all have to live and work and unless we have accepted the worst moral bargain of all (a housewife kept by a man) then women should be free to sell what services they choose.

Apparently prostituted women must act like good little girlfriends and they are rated on this talent (this whole concept of rating is a 'brilliant' way of keeping the prostituted women in line and behaving correctly). But this 'girlfriend experience' thing really does tap into what has been said already on the thread that the money is coercing the behaviour, and the behaviour must be one of compliance, punter must believe she wants to be here.

Yet then my head goes all funny at this point, because punter is paying her to pretend to be like a girlfriend, like someone who wants to do this...........but she doesn't want to do it, she is doing it only for the money, because her choices are limited.......oh so does that mean punter might actually be sort of bribing someone, blackmailing them to behave as punter wants them to?

OMG. What is wrong with people like you, why seek out escorts oppinions on a punting website, why not find an escort forum, go post on their and report back with what they actually say without twisting it to support your argument.
Presumeably you have been happy in all jobs you have worked and didn't feel you needed paying?
AGAIN I ASK HOW DO YOU KNOW SHE DOESN"T WANT TO DO THIS?
You are using the same old assumptions that have been dragged up pages and pages ago. The her you refer to is people like me. I hate being told what I think or feel.

Many of them want to do it. It may be hard for some women to understand that and it may be esaier to assume any woman selling her body for sex hates it (except housewives who apparently have some kind of enobled position as they sell sex in a sense withint marriage so are venerated as madonna not whore as they serve man for no pay in a domestic context which for some reason is regarded as morally better).

If married women on this thread think men don't rate them and their girl friends when they are chatting they need to take some courses in social anthroplogy.

There is a lot of research in call centres where people are paid to smile and get on with it despite the customer on the end being horrendous to them causes the workers significant stress over a period of time.

It's called emotional labour. Workers in a call centre are forced to empathise with the customer, manage the tone of their voice, control their emotions and ?smile down the phone?, even if the customer is being difficult and they feel entirely different about the situation. Ask any Psychologist and they will tell you that asking humans to consistently behave in a way in which is not how they actually feel about the situation, doesn?t acknowledge how they feel and allows them no independence of thought...............ain't no good for your emotional and psychological health.

So yes lots of people do jobs they don't want to do. Doesn't change anything.

It is also true that this is what many people in sex work actually feel, but they are complying with the norms of the industry - i.e. the girlfriend experience. And yes, I have worked with prostituted women. You may feel entirely different, but I have never met one who didn't feel they had to suppress their true feelings on many levels. It could be something considered rather tedious like he stinks a bit, or I hate the way he kisses me, but feelings are suppressed and violations of needs and wants are common.

And Ava by not acknowledging that a lot of women who are prostituted do feel that way, you are perpetuating the problem. "I'm alright jack, fuck the rest of you"

Every week, I am with women who HAVE HAD NO OTHER CLEAR CHOICE in their state of mind ( as someone above talked about, perhaps being in a depression etc. when they prostituted themselves). That is not to say there actually were no other choices, but that was their reality at that time.

I would love to know what has caused you to have such a hatred of women who decide to opt out of paid employment for a few years, Xenia, and why it upsets you so much-it seems weird. It doesn't hurt you in any way. I don't understand why a lot of people do things, but they are free to do it-I don't think they are remotely bothered what I think.

Arf at xenia's chicken factory analogy. I suppose the comparison would be if the chicken was going to be inserted in your bodily orifices...then it could be compared to prostitution.

"We all have to live and work and unless we have accepted the worst moral bargain of all (a housewife kept by a man)"

Honestly Xenia, I don't mean to be rude but you do talk nonsense sometimes! A housewife isn't kept by a man because she is working, for him, doing his housework and looking after his children. He's paying her, not keeping her.

There's nothing immoral about wanting to stay at home to bring up your children. And there's nothing immoral about not wanting to.

Will you please, for the love of God, stop being so judgemental because it's not helpful and not very nice. SAHMs on here don't go on at you "Oh Xenia you're so crap for leaving your kids with a childminder, it's so immoral" because people respect your right to parent as you please, so can you just return that respect to SAHMs.

I've never been in favour of prostitution but as mrs Lollygag has 'let herself go' more and more, I'm getting increasingly tempted.p.s Has a look at punternet but couldn't understand half the 'services' advertised.What would 'rimming' be?

A housewife isn't kept by a man because she is working, for him, doing his housework and looking after his children. He's paying her, not keeping her.

Wince a bit at that.

she is working, for him, doing his housework and looking after his children and sleeping with him?

OneMoreChap, I didn't say "sleeping with him". Where did I say that?

mcmooncup

Re your call centre analogy, yes I agree it's not nice work, although I have worked for one company who are very different in how they treat their call centre staff, so not everything is as black and white as you attempt to infer.
What's more I don't see anyone trying to ban call centre's down to the fact that the majority of people working their aren't happy.
Perhaps if the people that called in were not self entitled arseholes who forget it is a human being they are talking to that would improve call centre workers conditions.
Surely it is about improving working conditions for those who choose prostitution and provide help to those who find themselves selling themselves due to some other reason.
But you will probably tell me that no one in their right mind decides to be a prostitute. Again you are then taking away the fact that some do choose this.

I've seen drug addicted women working as escorts and it's not nice, just like watching any vulnerable person in a mess isn't nice, so I do acknowledge not all are happy.
But if you expect me to become a martyr and give up my means of earning a living simply because of your moral crusade you are as deluded as the majority on this thread.
It's not a case of 'I don't give a fuck', it's just I have the right to be a pro if I choose and I don't believe me stopping becoming an escort will suddenly improve conditions for vulnerable women.

Go and ask the punternetters wisdom.

I think the housewives have been disrespected on this thread more than the prostitutes ever have! Xenia I wouldn't call either 'immoral'. Generally speaking feminists don't run down other women as much as Xenia does.

messyisthenewtidy Tue 11-Sep-12 20:19:09
OneMoreChap, I didn't say "sleeping with him". Where did I say that?

Where did I say that you did?
Note the italicization.

You were saying she was being paid for providing housewifely services.

She isn't.
They are dividing the labour and the money.

If she's being paid for childminding, she's being paid for sex.