Should it be illegal for men to pay for prostitution?

[EatsBrainsAndLeaves]

Should we criminalise all men who pay for prostitution, alongside help for women to leave prostituion?

To the pp who said the Swedish sex laws would only push prostitution away from the streets- well isn't that a good thing

Not if its going to push them into the hand of organised criminals?

Of course, it is a truism (and a platitude) to say that money doesn't make you happy - but is it too much of a coincidence to make a connection, in country like Sweden, between low levels of income inequality and high levels of child well-being, and laws which try to address the exploitation of women?

So, to your question, what is the alternative, it is to campaign to reduce social inequalities, and to challenge injustice and exploitation when you see it.

My last post refers to Avaboos

Why would it push them into the hands of hardened criminals? Any more so than being on the streets? In my experience street prostitutes were often already in the hands of criminals - pimps and drug pushers.

My last post for tittytittyhsnghang

This is a good read on the swedish sex laws.

Ava, I read that you went into prostitution when you partner left you with 2 young children? Are you still in prostitution now? (you dont have to answer that if you dont want to) at least you weren't on the streets. what I witnessed in Leic was bad enough but I bet I didn't see the worst if it!

I guess any of us could make that choice if we were desperate enough, but I'm with the other posters here that don't understand how the men can do it, knowing that the woman doesn't really want to.

VoiceOfTheBeehive, the link doesn't work.

I think it is this justicewomen.com/cj_sweden.html

That's it Beachcombers thank you! Can never do links here!

You're welcome .

It is a good article.

So, to your question, what is the alternative, it is to campaign to reduce social inequalities, and to challenge injustice and exploitation when you see it.

Which is fine and of course should be done, but a child already born, idealising about how things should be does not change their immediate circumstances.
Another issue I have with this is that while it's great to buy into this we as humans are all to quick to criticise and judge how the next person lives.
It's a bit nimbyism ish!
So great to think we can help all the poor down trodden pro's but I bet not many of you would like it if hubby walked in tonight and announced new company policy was to employ former sex workers?

As for citing Sweden as a model for all things good, how come it has a very high suicide rate amongst similar demographically/economically placed countries?

To answer the question, yes i am currently an escort and I have to say in response to this'

"I guess any of us could make that choice if we were desperate enough, but I'm with the other posters here that don't understand how the men can do it, knowing that the woman doesn't really want to."

Sounds really stuck up and does not take on board any of my previous posts on this debate
How do you know the woman doesn't really want to?

"Sex workers in Sweden do not consider themselves to be victims"
Cool, so you know every single one of them?

No, that was a quote from a (recent) report here (page 38):
www.hivlawcommission.org/resources/report/FinalReport-Risks,Rights&Health-EN.pdf

The report is getting at the fact when a man is caught in Sweden paying for sex and goes to court it is very unlikely he will be convicted and ounished. The reason is the sex worker involved "almost always* refuses to testify against him in court or say she was a victim.

To the pp who said the Swedish sex laws would only push prostitution away from the streets- well isn't that a good thing

So all you care about is pushing prostitution out of sight? Out of sight of the authorities and pushed underground where trafficked victims will still be trafficked just the same? It also shows that such laws do not "reduce demand" at all- the demand is still there and the law isn't that much of a deterrent all.

IMHO the Swedish/Norway/icelandic law isn't as great as some make it out to be.

but is it too much of a coincidence to make a connection, in country like Sweden, between low levels of income inequality and high levels of child well-being

I'd think tax / social security comes into it a fair amount. Sweden has one of the highest tax rates in the world at just under 50% of earnings. It also has one of the best social security systems / nets.

Ava, Sweden doesn't have a particularly high suicide rate - that's a myth. It's ranked 30th (and the Swiss have a higher rate). It does sound like you're just making excuses to maintain the stays quo. Even though such gains against inequality have been made in the last couple of generations.

I bet not many of you would like it if hubby walked in tonight and announced new company policy was to employ former sex workers?

Why?

I find this an odd thing to say.

The feminist view that I'm familiar with, is that women need jobs and support in order to exit prostitution - and that is my view. So why on earth would I not like it if I heard of a company who choose to participate in that support by offering opportunities to women who leave prostitution?

Well I can turn that around and say that you are doing just the same.
It depends on where it's compared to I suppose, but by making a statement that because of how things are done in Sweden everyone there is should be as happy as larry.

I'm simply trying to balance the argument as someone who is actually an escort.

We can find research to support both sides of the argument, as a previous poster said , how do we move the debate on, it just goes round in circles.

"Even though such gains against inequality have been made in the last couple of generations."

I rather think that depends on who you are, where you live and how observant you are of inequality. Many seem to believe the gap between rich and poor to be widening not the other way round.

Ava, I apologise, I didnt mean to offend. Like I said, it was street prostitutes I knew, perhaps it's different.

To those thinking I just want to send prostitution out of sight - not at all. I want women to have more choices available to them! In Leic all sorts of people had to witness what I saw, including children because it all went on in daytime, in broad daylight!

Would it really be sent into the hands of criminals? I don't think so. The sex trafficking figures In Sweden are down, prostitution is down.

I find this an odd thing to say.

The feminist view that I'm familiar with, is that women need jobs and support in order to exit prostitution - and that is my view. So why on earth would I not like it if I heard of a company who choose to participate in that support by offering opportunities to women who leave prostitution?

But are these feminists all current or former prostitutes?
So what would you offer me so I could leave prostitution? Why can you not see that many people need jobs and support to achieve things in life it isn't just limited to prostitutes (if that is what you believe).

Because some women see sex workers as being a threat to their relationships, so the issue of sex work as a whole perhaps becomes clouded as it's more about the threat to their lives rather than the women who participate in it.

@Xenia I don't think there is any enthusiasm in the UK to change the law to make it illegal for men or women to pay for sex.

There has been not one but several attempts in Scotland to criminalize prostitution outright (all defeated after MSPs agreed it could make prostitution even more dangerous).

I'm sure if there are any more attempts to come I'm sure they too will come under strong opposition and will too be defeated.

off topic- I think a quote function for mumsnet might be helpful.

No I wouldn't be worried if my dh worked with ex-prostitutes - for all I know he already does. I don't know the detailed history of all his co-workers. Personally, I don't see prostitutes as sex mad beings that will try and tempt my dh away from me- especially not someone who has exited the business.

In the Swedish model funding was put into education of the population regarding prostitution, in order to remove the stigma from ex-prostitutes. This is vitally important IMO.

That article on the Swedish model also said that John's reduced by 80%. And sex trafficking into Sweden has been eradicated.

Oh and finally, 80% of the population are in favour of the sex laws.

I thought laws banning prostitution increased stigma? If something is illegal of course it's going to have more stigma and taboo.

But on the Swedish model it is not the prostitutes who are criminalised. It is the punters.

Add an education program into the mix and you reduce/remove the stigma from prostitutes.

The punters deserve to be stigmatised.

Here's another article on the Swedish law. This one was written by a sexworker herself who has spoken to other sex workers:

www.petraostergren.com/pages.aspx?r_id=40716

"Another often mentioned grievance is how sexworkers feel treated by the authorities and by society at large. All sexworkers I have spoken to mention the stigma attached to prostitution where the sexworker is seen as weak, dirty, mentally ill, addicted to drugs and alcohol and viewed as a victim. Along with the difficult legal situation, this makes the sexworkers afraid that it will be brought to public attention that they sell sex, so they do all they can to ensure their anonymity. This includes for some women lying to friends, family and neighbours."

IMO noone knows the industry better than sexworkers themselves and we should listen to what they have to say.