Congratulating women on getting married

[Margerykemp]

Everyone I know seems to be getting married at the moment.

I tend not to be invited to the actual event (another thread) but the inevitable Facebook status changes and everyone else 'likes' that.

For others I'm more in touch with via text I feel I should acknowledge it but...

All of this sits uncomfortably with me. I am becoming increasingly anti-marriage. My heart sinks every time I see a woman change her name lose her identity.

And why does it seem compulsory to make the big white dress photo as your profile pic? Strangely the grooms don't...

I'm such an old cynic- I just think to myself that half of them will divorce eventually.

I don't tell anyone this but I feel like I'm lying about my beliefs when I approve this oppressive patriarchal institution.

I think they would just think I'm bitter ( I've been in a ltr longer than most brides)

How do other feminists handle their friends weddings?

I never wanted to marry until I met dh, it just felt right. No other man had made me feel like that. I changed my name to his purely because I have a very complicated first name & his surname was easier to spell than my surname.

I have 2 friends who should never have married their husbands but I went to their weddings & smiled. They know I will be there for them if they ever have the guts to leave. I am anti marriage when it comes to them.

I don't understand the problem- it isn't about you. It would be a boring world if everyone thought the same. Be happy for them and happy for yourself and your choices.

Ok maybe because in the small sample of people I know who are getting married/ have recently married they aren't doing it for the 'we are equals and we love each other' reasons. They are jumping on the peer pressure band wagon because all their friends are doing it. It's like being back in high school when some girls start having sex with their boyfriends just cos all their friends are doing the same. Not because they actually want to.

I'm seeing lots of good women marry utter arseholes just because they don't want to be the only singleton in their group.

I hate to see them 'lose themselves' in wife work.

But I suppose it's just a lesson they'll have to learn for themselves.

MK: I think this does happen sometimes; women marry because everyone else is doing so and/or they are under pressure not to be single. Are you being given shit about your own unmarried status?

It could just be that you have outgrown or are outgrowing this particular set of friends and that's why you're finding all their weddings so irritating. In general, though, if people are doing something that's making them happy and not harming you, it's probably best to say something like 'How nice for you' and move on. Even if they are marrying for bad reasons (desperation not to be single, inertia ie they've been going out with their partners for ages and it's all basically OK so they might as well...) they won't thank you for criticizing their choices. Even if they know, deep down, that you are right.

I could get behind all of that, though, margery, I reckon lots of us could. It is rotten seeing friends doing stuff when you feel it's for the wrong reasons. A lovely friend of mine is with a total wanker and I find it hard to bite my tongue about that, too.

But I'm sure she thinks there are mistakes I'm making, and she's watching me thinking 'well, it's a lesson she'll have to learn', too.

(One excellent reason not to get married: you'll get ready to go to bed and your loving DH will bring you a cuppa, which you will drink without thinking before realizing you're now nicely caffinated and not sleepy any more. The cruelty!)

I will always congratulate someone on getting to do something that makes them happy.

Besides, isn't the point of feminism that women get to make a choice? That would include chosing whether to not get married or get married. And a healthy marriage doesn't involve a loss of identity. A name is just a name in the end. Is it any more feminist to keep my father's surname than take my husband's? The real identity comes in who you are and if who you are includes feeling estremely happy in the company of a particular person, then why should you be able to dictate that that's disappointing and wrong for them?

But then you can entice them into having sex with you, which hopefully makes you sleepy again!

Maybe that's why they bring you the tea in the first place

And, for balance, DH was anti-marriage until i proposed to him, btw!

If I get bored of him, I already have first dibs on Alex James, though.

I don't think that anyone can possibly know why someone is getting married. It is a huge leap to assume they are just following peers I can't recall telling people why I was getting married - people don't generally.

Ok maybe because in the small sample of people I know who are getting married/ have recently married they aren't doing it for the 'we are equals and we love each other' reasons. They are jumping on the peer pressure band wagon because all their friends are doing it. It's like being back in high school when some girls start having sex with their boyfriends just cos all their friends are doing the same. Not because they actually want to.

Surely anyone could discuss this, whether you are anti-marriage in general or not.

What do you say if you think that the marriage someone is embarking upon will make them unhappy in the long run?

I don't know the answer to that. I would like to think there is something you could say, but maybe SGB is right and the time has passed and if they are announcing their intentions to get married it's too late.

If you do say anything I expect that you will (quite rightly) be told to mind your own business!

How do other feminists handle their friends weddings?

I'm happy for them.

I'm a feminist, and married. I didn't have the big white wedding but marriage is important to me and my husband and I are without a doubt equal I am in charge.

We joined names which many people didn't understand. I admit to being surprised that all of my female friends, and indeed every married woman on my facebook have changed their name to their husband's though. Their choice- just wish I would get less reactions to why I wanted to double barrell.

Honestly? I don't normaly like posting f it's not something positive, but I really think you need to examine your attitude to your 'friends'. It really doesn't sound like you respect or like them and if that's the case, what are you doing in their company? But what really strikes me is that you seem to be presuming you have the ability to look into their hearts and minds and know the basis of each relationship and their reasons forgetting married - which imo are often complex and myriad and highly individual. I strongly doubt that you know better for your friends than they do, and so I answer to your question how do you deal with it, you respect your opinions as your own but also your friends' rights to their own opinions and respect their autonomy to live their own lives.

I wonder if your friends are picking up on your negativity, which I think appears to be directed at them rather than their decision to marry, and that's why you're not usually invited?

FWIW I don't think your analogy works. Counselling someone to deny their sexuality is advising them to live their lives according to someone else's values. People on this thread counselling you not to voice your beliefs is advising you on how to deal with relationships with others with different views to you; they are not telling you to eschew your feminist beliefs in your own life. I think someone else used the following word - you seem to want to evangelise - ie you seem to feel you cannot live in a way that is truthful to your feminist beliefs without communicating your views in circumstances which you think will provide such a juxtaposition that your friends will rethink - as opposed to keeping them to yourself, because yor friendshave already clearly made the decision and are not seeking your view on it.

Please remember that there are two views on most issues, bar really heinous crimes, of which i think we can see from the range of opinions on marriage on this thread, marriage is not one, even for some feminists. This is why, no matter how clear-cut your own views are, I think people are advising tact.

I see a more accurate analogy in a situation where a Christian who does not believe in gay marriage seeks to make their views known to a same-sex couple announcing their intention to marry.

Sorry, I know I don't know you or your reasons for your views ether, but that is an honest attempt to answer your question.

It sounds a rather controlling attitude to friendships.

Actually I can see you don't once call them friends, just refer to them as people you know. In which case, do you really care? I think I'd probably reserve any tricky conversations for people I was close to, if I were to voice my views.

And again, FWIW, I think that's why you're finding people aren't answering your question as you expect them to - because whether they agree with you about marriage or not, most of them wouldn't communicate those views in the situation you're describing, which is what you're asking for advice on.

Really interesting thread margery!

I am a feminist and staunchly anti-marriage. Having said that, if DP and I had children, I would marry him (very very quietly) because I would want to ensure that we had the necessary legal protection in the event of things going wrong. We're not planning to have children ever and at the moment, we live together but have totally separate finances so it's not an issue. I would be up for a civil partnership though as this doesn't have the patriarchal baggage and sounds much more equal to me.

Like other posters, I admit to having a sinking feeling when people tell me they have got engaged or are getting married. I usually show some mild interest by saying 'oh good for you' or whatever but I just can't get it up to make a fuss. I'm thinking here of people at work or whatever, people I don't know all that well. My BF got married a few years ago to a total arsehole, and that was really tough. Diamond rings, white dresses, being 'given away' and name-changing make me feel downright sad if I'm honest

Sorry, didn't finish my point about my best friend! It was hard seeing her get married to a tosser, but it's her life etc etc. I did show enthusiasm for her wedding because I wanted to be supportive of her and felt it wasn't fair to impose my views on her. Having said that, I couldn't bring myself to write anything about wishing them years and years of happiness on their wedding card - I just wished them both a lovely day instead. She's having their first baby later this month and I have made a huge effort to be supportive and enthusiastic but inside I'm thinking 'WHY are you doing this????'

She is aware of my views on marriage as we have known each other for a long time. I tend to keep my views to myself in general, unless someone asks me directly whether DP and I will be getting married, and then I say no, we're not interested. Have had some interesting reactions to that!

That's interesting Lotta - do you find that some married people react badly to your lack of interest in marriage? This is part of what I said earlier about objecting to the central role marriage plays in our culture - whereby marriage is seen as the default and anyone who doesn't marry is seen as odd/defective.

Sorry if I've missed something here Margerykemp, but you seem to be drip-feeding/shifting your stance with every post.

You started with "becoming increasingly anti-marriage" and asked "How do other feminists handle their friends weddings?" When people answered that question you shifted to :

"Woah! Lots of defensiveness. My question is really only directed at people who ARE anti-marriage. ... If you are anti-marriage do you tell your married friends?"
which is a totally different question. Plus you are effectively equating 'feminists' and 'people who ARE anti-marriage'. Really? I must say I took a bit of offence at that.

You were obviously queried about that, and denied you " ... only want to talk to people who agree with me" and returned to your original question, reworded into "I want to know how people with a certain belief system handle a practical issue" . Which people had been answering before you said Woah!

You then completely shift the goalposts with "Ok maybe because in the small sample of people I know who are getting married/ have recently married ... are jumping on the peer pressure band wagon because all their friends are doing it. ... I'm seeing lots of good women marry utter arseholes just because they don't want to be the only singleton in their group."
Now if you'd started with that information, and ask how other MNers would respond to such announcements, you'd may have got a very different set of answers. Or maybe not, as whatever their motives they are adults who are competent to make their own decisions, and everyone is entitled to go to hell in the handcart of their own choosing.

As an aside, I think you read too much into making "the big white dress photo" into their Facebook profile picture. If they're recently married then it's one of their most recent photos, plus it was probably taken by a professional (and should therefore be a 'good' photo) and is flattering. I have very few photographs of myself that I would say I liked, most people are probably the same, you use what good photos you have.

MooncupGoddess, I've had reactions like 'you don't want to get married?' (from a family member who has a horrendous marriage and has thought many times about divorce ), simple straightforward 'why???' (well, backatcha!) to 'oh'. On the other hand, some people are totally fine with it. I'm not planning to have children either and have had a wide range of reactions to that when people find out, not all of them welcome I promise you. It's amazing how invested lots of people are in the status quo and what is 'expected' and some people get very shirty indeed if you choose a different path. Interesting.

Some people seem to take exception to the fact that I'm not married, have never married or even lived with a partner and never will; they either imply I'm a lesbian-who-won't-come-out or have suffered horrible trauma/my parents had a bitter divorce. None of that's true.
Most of my friends are pretty open-minded, though; a lot of them are different from the normal heteromonogamous model (some gay, some celibate, some polyamorous, etc).
THe roots of marriage are about male ownership of women and it is a matter of inheritance/breeding etc. This is a fact, and any individual's happy marriage is not changed in any way by this fact, but just mentioning it triggers a lot of waa, waa, why are you so bitter?

People do also judge you for getting married, though - there's not a very easy answer. I got an awful lot of 'oh, why are you doing this, it's so establishment, man' or 'you're going to regret it'. People I do not know well at all are perfectly happy to tell me they thought my choice was mad and worrying. A couple of DH's friends chose not to turn up on the day because they (married themselves) didn't care for the way we were doing it.

Bottom line: you cannot avoid judgy people.

The reason I mention this is, I think it's the other side of the same coin. SGB is right that marriage as we know it has its roots in male ownership of women and women as objects. It's also the case (probably for the same reason) that women are on average the lower-earning partners in hetero relationships, and that in hetero couples who have children, women are on average more likely to lose earning power. And the easiest (though not the only) way to protect against this is - marriage. IMO that's a problem for feminists, in that there ought to be a restructuring of society to protect women, rather than marriage itself.

But in our current situation, some of the naysayers to marriage are also doing bad things for women ... not anyone here, but for example the sort of blokes who convince women they're just too cool and unconventional for stuff like that, then proceed to up and leave when they feel like it.