The Alpha-Parent's latest breastfeeding missive

[WidowWadman]

What a lot of patronising tosh. So she says

" obscures the fact that formula feeding is a deviation from the norm.
contributes to the illusion that breast milk and formula are on an even keel.
weakens legal protection for breastfeeding ('choices' are weaker than 'rights').
fuels Mother Vs Mother dialogue ('The Mommy Wars').
relieves formula companies, health professionals and poor support systems of their responsibility (instead all responsibility is placed on the choice-maker).
discourages individual social responsibility.
sees women as weak and unable to field criticism.
shuts down debate, discussion, activism and progress."

In what way is saying "unless you're doing it my way you're doing it wrong" not fuelling the "mommy wars"?
In what way does she not see "women as weak and unable to field criticism?" After all tons of criticism is heaped on women no matter how they choose to feed their babies.

I've fed my first child for a year and a half, and the second is going that way too. I feel quite embarassed that anyone could mistake my long term breastfeeding for agreement with the above illiberal and misconceived shite.

I'm not convinced that research has been "found" to direct women's behaviour mini. That sounds a bit too conspiracy theory for me. You may be right, but I'm not buying it.

Yes, the formula companies are pushing formula in areas of cheap labour. They would be pushing formula here, or at least advertising it more than they already do, if we didn't have laws against the advertising of formula for babies under 6 months. I'm fairly certain that formula companies want to sell their product the same way any large international company wants to sell it's product wherever there is a market. So they will push formula wherever that is allowed, it's the capitalist way isn't it?

It is indeed the capitalist way. And capitalism is intrinsically tied up with patriarchy IMO.

Who makes the main money from manufacturing and selling formula? I'm willing to bet that far fewer women are enriched than men.

Good "The pressure to conform to the "rose-tinted bollocks" wouldn't necessarily be there either if more people were bf older babies/toddlers as there would be more women experiencing the same thing so they could moan to each other (as we do about sleepless nights, potty training, toddler tantrums, etc) and people would hopefully not be as quick to question why you are continuing if you are struggling with some aspects."

So really you're saying "let's spread the misery, so we can moan to each other" rather than leaving it up to every woman what she wants to do. Without heaping social pressure onto her to conform to a different set of norms?

FWIW, I don't keep the moaning to myself, and just roll my eyes when anybody tells me "well done" for keeping going for so long. Being pushed over by a toddler is not really an achievement

Widow that wasn't my intention at all, of course I don't just want to "spread the misery" and heap social pressure on women to conform to a different set of norms.
I am completely happy for every woman to make the choices she is comfortable with. I just think that women should be more informed about the choices they are making and that we shouldn't be afraid to challenge what is seen as the norm.

Ah right, so she's free to make choices, but you reserve the right to call her choices uninformed/inferior/whatever.

I agree with your last post good. It's about choice but imformed choice hopefully.

No, I don't reserve the right to judge the choices any individual woman makes. I am trying to say that all of the relevant information and support should be given as a matter of course rather than being something people have to seek out. People can only make choices based on the information they have had access to.

www.guardian.co.uk/business/2007/may/15/medicineandhealth.lifeandhealth
Perhaps Alpha should be more concerned with the formula feeding of infants in developing countries where formula feeding can literally spell death. With mother's being targeted by advertising and doctors loyalty being bought, where access to clean water and sterile bottles is limited, babies lives are being put at risk.

I don't think women are being told in the west to formula feed, quite the reverse, we are pressured to Bf.

Mini I agree however the mother needs to be healthy too for bf to be beneficial so depends on context to a degree.

The formula companies are very keen on women buying follow on milk once babies are 6 months though. There's plenty of TV and magazine adverts extolling the benefits of follow on milk, and implying that normal milk doesn't have enough nutrients for a baby over 6 months. I'm not certain, but I'd bet that they only add the small print about breast is best because they're legally obliged to.

Agree totally with the comment about formula feeding in developing countries btw.

In those like China, on the threshold of rapid industrialisation, there is likely to be a demand for safe milk formulas and complementary foods as traditional weaning practices decline and more mothers return to work soon after the birth of their babies

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2082721/

So in the 60's and 70's when labour was in short supply, labour was well organised and work was plentiful in western countries, women were called upon to work (feminist would have you believe they orchestrated this!) women were told formula was best. As women enter the workforce wages decline, not enough women did so and Thatcher smashed the unions and started to disempower labour. Now capital has fled to emerging economies where labour is cheap, those women are pressured to work and buy formula.

Of course people are concerned about formula being pushed onto mothers in developing countries mini, I'm not in any way disputing that that is happening. There are campaigns to try and get the governments in those countries to agree to the terms of the 'baby friendly' initiatives suggested by the WHO. Lots and lots of people are VERY concerned about this as it is a massive problem. But just because there is a massive problem in other countries does not mean we should ignore the smaller problems in our own. Obviously people disagree about how important each issue is and what is a problem for one person is a non-issue for someone else.

Some people experience pressure to bf, others experience pressure to ff. Our opinions on where the pressure lies are probably rooted in different experiences. The only mention of bf I ever had was a couple of times the mw mentioned it at antenatal appointments, there was one session out of 10 on it at antenatal classes and there were a couple of leaflets handed out at the hospital. On the other hand my experience of pressure to ff was a more subtle but invasive pressure. There are adverts on tv and in baby magazines constantly for formula (yes it's for 'follow-on' formula, but it's still formula), people assume that every new mum will need bottles, almost everyone I meet assumes that every baby will have some formula at some point it's just a matter of time. The HCPs pay lip service to being pro-bf but then the support disappears the minute you have problems, GPs aren't necessarily very knowledgable about the common problems and treatments available (having had to fight every step of the way to get the correct treatment for ductal thrush). Then once baby is over 6 months it is assumed that you should move to formula and when you don't there are a huge number of people that question that decision in a way I've never seen anyone question a ff mother. That's just my experience though and you may well have had a very different experience to me.

Good - but isn't the bit about how bloody demanding, tiring and exhausting it is part of the information? Or the bit about the hormonal impact? You said yourself you don't talk about it. Nobody's openly sharing information which might discourage, and that's dishonest.

Amy Tuteur (who I know is controversial, but she often has a point) has summed it up quite well here: Breastfeeding is hard

Agree with your post again good, I experienced similar.

Yes Widow that is definitely part of the information that I think should be shared. It isn't relevant to my real life though as I don't know anyone who is currently pg or bf a young baby. The only people I have in my real life to moan to are people who switched to ff early on or childless people who have absolutely no interest in how anybody chooses to feed their babies. I would love to see the common problems and issues with bf discussed at the antenatal session about infant feeding. That is part of sharing all of the relevant information before expecting women to make choices about feeding their child. Good and Bad should be shared.

It's only on MN that I read how women think ff is an equal to bf, and how women don't bother trying to bf for selfish or uneducated reasons, and how ff is normal and bf is weird. The subtext is always that women who ff are working-class, uneducated, selfish or handmaidens of the patriarchy. MNers who bf are the elite, the educated, the alpha parents.

I ff and am constantly, constantly reminded of my inferiority as a parent for doing so. Life or death, some might say

I am happy with my choice to ff. Whether or not formula companies meant to - they help women like me immensely. I am a fantastic mother etc etc.

Bf is hard work, combi feeding should have much more information available. It doesn't have to be one or the other. With information and support women could combi feed in some situations. My ds had severe reflux and I bf, wish I had understood how to combi feed effectively without limiting supply.

Widow - there's absolutely nothing wrong in wanting your body back. I think there's a difference in wanting your body back for yourself - the situation you're describing - and feeling that you should reserve your body for your man - which is the type of thing Alpha Parent is talking about.

I do feel for you. Incidentally when I was BFing DD (about 2.5 years ago) I absolutely HATED it, couldn't wait to give up, resented the pressure to bf, and switched thankfully to formula once she was about 5 months. So I'm certainly not dismissing anyone's individual experience of bfing, or choices around how they feed their baby. I could never, ever have made it to 14 months - you've done a great thing.

On the societal expectations thing. I was chatting just this evening with my German friend who's the mother of three children, all older than mine. She casually mentioned that her youngest (4.5) still breastfeeds. I didn't want to make it sound as if I thought that was particularly unusual (I know from MN that it's not!) but from the casual way she mentioned it, I got the impression that she thought it was quite the normal thing to do. Which I think proves that the society you live in is very influential when it comes to your own attitudes towards bfing.

Maybe it's different across regions, here in the south east bf is pushed quite hard, all of the midwives are very pushy and there were drop-ins and breast feeding cafes, the la leche leaflets/groups with peer support. Lots of help in hospital (which I didn't access but) I saw the other new mums getting lots of help.

The only thing I questioned was why the paediatrician who was male advised on bottle feeding, Ds was jaundiced and that was the advice. Seems that women are more inclined to both support and push breast feeding, male doctors seem to be more ambivalent.

I agree WidowW, it seems that there is a great silence. It is the same with motherhood in general. If you speak to older women who's children have grown up, they will extol all the great things and there is a silence about PND, hormones, messed up careers, non existent pensions, lack of freedom, the changes to their own relationships and bodies, sleepless nights and exhaustion.

Treats - "and feeling that you should reserve your body for your man - which is the type of thing Alpha Parent is talking about."

Yeah, but that's the old "sex is something only men like and women are only socialised to do" meme. I doubt that that's the motivation for most women.

Oh - I was just thinking a bit more about Widow's post when I read Bourbon's. I think the point that Alpha Parent is missing is that bfing is BLOODY HARD WORK. It's all very well saying that it's better to bf, and that women 'ought' to do it, but there does need to be some recognition of what a physical toll it takes on women. A physical toll that FF just doesn't have. It's not always about not wanting saggy boobs. Sometimes it's about wanting to have periods again, or about not always having to be on call for the children, or not having horrible painful boobs when you miss a feed.

Widow - I meant in the context of women who don't breastfeed because their husbands don't want them to. If you want to get your body back for your own sexual gratification then that's in the category of getting your body back for yourself.

Treats - so how many women really don't breastfeed because their husbands don't want them to?

I've never understood why a man would be against his partner BF as it's not like he would ever be expected to do his share of night feeds. I mean what's not to love about a full 8 hrs uninterrupted sleep?

Are there actually any stats somewhere saying why women choose to ff in the UK?