Toilets

[rosabud]

I just read the thread about boys failing in education because they do not "fit" into the gender-biased world of education and the article that argues how, in fact, women/girls do not "fit" into the gender biased whole world. It's a very thought-provoking and intellectual thread but it made me think of this rather less intellectual subject so I decided my thoughts might be better served on a new thread!

Anyway, one clear example of where women don't "fit" into the male norm expected by society and, as a result, have to suffer is, as I'm sue we've all experienced, that of public toilets. At the weekend I was standing patiently in a queue of women at a well-known chain of coffee shops outside the ladies while the gents was empty. Desperate and cross, I suggested we take matters into our own hands and we all began to use the gents as well, watching the door for eachother and offering to issue a warning should a real gent need to go! The male coffee shop assistant was very cross and told us we were not allowed to do this (on the basis of "health and safety" of all things which did give us a giggle!!) but we carried on anyway! He went to "get the manager" but by the time manager came we had all finished and order was restored!!

What do you think? Should we use the gents as a matter of course? Were we in the wrong?

It doesn't mean that the person doesn't deserve respect.

By your ridiculously simple logic: how many people benefit from paramedic in a day? how many benefit from a cleaner?

Not how respect works though is it? If I don't do my job, some people don't learn to speak English. Hardly a big deal. So do I not deserve respect?

I certainly respect people who work hard and show commitment to their job, especially paramedics & others who work horrible hours and have to be calm under pressure to save lives, but what pisses me right off is the notion that people who've had a better education or have studied at a higher level somehow deserve more respect than someone who cleans toilets.

If a paramedic doesn't do their job properly you could quite easily die. If a cleaner doesn't do their job properly the toilets might smell bad.

Not strictly true... not if you are in a hospital ward for example.

Interesting thread - there was an event last year hosted by the Women's Design Service (WDS) looking at the issue of public toilets and provision for women (write up here) following earlier work done on this by WDS (including the classic book At Women's Convenience).

Some of the WDS Associates also launched a 'We Need the Loo' campaign calling for councils to be obliged to provide a certain (better) level of public WC provision (currently this is not mandatory).

There is an interesting presentation here by Professor Clara Greed (UWE scholar & world renowned expert of public loos).

Sadly WDS are currently dormant thanks to all their funding being pulled in the London Councils cuts last year :( I think this would be a good issue for Mumsnet to campaign on.

@ might as well piss everywhere to give the cleaner more work. What an appalling attitude.

On hovering / seat wiping / tights / all the rest of it. My mum is a hoverer, and so was my gran. Threads on here also speak of hovering. TBH I've been to the bog with loads of women and girls and so have witnessed an array of different habits. Quite usual for females to have done this so a bit surprised at the, well, surprise on all of this!

I'm a quick in and out myself, and often was out of the bog in the pub before the bloke I was with, which always caused confusion

You are righ Sardine, I do need some education - what is a "hoverer"? I have visions of levitating women dive bombing the bog :o

But it does come back to my semi-serious question, WTF do wome women do in the damn toilets?

Here are some things that women do in the toilet most of which men don't do:

• hang up coat and bag
• undo trousers/pull up skirt, pull down tights (carefully) etc
• wipe pee of hoverers off seat
• sit down
• pee (some people pee more than others too)
• wipe
• maybe have a big sigh if they've just done a speech/been looking after small children/finished work
• rinse out and reinsert mooncup or change tampon or pad
• look at phone
• clothing procedure in reverse

I do have a question though - why do I sometimes go into a women's toilet to find the seat up?

A hoverer is someone who doesn't want to sit on the seat and so hovers their backside an inch or so about it while peeing, to avoid contact.

Understandable in desperate situations with filthy bogs and no bog roll, not so understandable when done as a matter of course due to "germs" but that's just my opinion.

No-one wants to have to sit in someone elses piss (or worse).

The reason women take longer is cos of the flush. The next woman has to wait for the cistern to fill back up before she can flush and exit. You've all stood there waiting for that to happen, right?

Urinals have a constant regular flush effect. Much more efficient. And stinkier.

Are there any studies that show whether women pee more often or take longer? I'm thinking about things like pregnant women, women with cystitis and women with post-birth bladder issues. obviously men don't have periods either

There are some things (age) that would apply to both men and women, but if you add up all those things that only affect women it must have a cumulative effect.

Then there's the cultural law that children go with mum, and I swear my dd takes half an hour in there.

Love that this thread is both light hearted AND linking to serious papers on this issue

Why are urinals so stinky? Surely the constant flush should stop that?

i would have thought this problem would be getting less as more female architects join the profession, if they are, i have no idea, i'm just imagining that they are.

i check the mens if theirs a que at the ladies so my Oh can slip in for a quick wee, most guys dont give a stuff actually if their at the urinal and a woman walks by.

i think mens loos are stinkier because women demand better sanitary conditions, men dont have to physically touch the urinal, so apart from the doorhandle ( not everyone washes their hands) your in and out in no time and if it's stinky you can hold your breath.

That last bit is good summary about why women demand more sanitary bogs.

Also the reason for the stinkiness might tie in with the comment upthread ^ about why not piss everywhere the cleaner will just clean it up. Is it something to do with cleaning at home usually being done by women and cleaners usually being women. So women treat the facilities with a little respect while the blokes just empty their bladders up the walls and what-not as some woman will be along to clean it up later. Hmmmm?

I have no idea why urinals are so stinky.

I know of KS1 toilets which stink to high heaven, even though they are cleaned daily. KS2 toilets can be downright evil, IME.

There are some truly shocking attitudes on this thread.

And for the record, I have as much respect for the toilet cleaner, and the dustbin man as I do a heart surgeon or a lawyer.

yellowraincoat, have you name changed, or are you a newbie? You talk a lot of sense. (Obviously doesn't mean a lot coming from me. )

Not name changed, not that new, nope.

Thanks for saying I speak sense, like.

Plenty Guess I invited that personal attack by typing "us" instead of "some"

Point is in the places where queues often occur and lots of drink is consumed some blokes don't care where they piss, mens loos are vile places at the best of times

mens toilets do sometiems have piss all over the floor and i wonder why, it really isnt rocket sceince to piss in the urinal!

but then some men seem to have an overwhelming desire to draw enormous phallouses on the walls, something i have never fuly understood.

Why are urinals so stinky? Surely the constant flush should stop that?

I am told that actually hitting the urinal is quite an achievement.....

I like the idea of a toilet with a "wee door" as SchrodingersMew mentioned. Sounds very efficient.

Oh the effect of mumsnet. I thought of you all today as I went to pee in the loos at the swimming pool.
I thought of sardinequeen as I tried to hover but my thigh muscles werent up to it so I plonked right down onto a seatful of pee . I did manage however to get in and out in just under 36 seconds (mississipily) and nick a few bits of loo paper in the process

oh no! A urinal is just too easy a target. Sometimes you DO have to stand as far away as possible whilst pointing percy at the porcelain and see the distance you can make.
Or, make attractive designs on the wall, with a signature 'swoosh' as you finish. It's a matter of aesthetics, pressure and muscle control. And individual style.

Men! And you still say you are blind to your privilege

I'm slightly intrigued by the thought of the seat being left up in the ladies loo, this is perhaps a sinister game.

As far as piss going everywhere in a mens urinal, well have you never played the "lets see if i can dissolve the toilet block by wee alone power game?"

I guess not, Its sooooooooo much fun

24 - I have never denied my privilege - it's just nice to exercise it in private. (or with an admiring posse..)

Aker - dissolving the toilet block is no challenge whatsoever.