Ghandi, Aung San Su Kiy and other arseholes

[solidgoldbrass]

Isn't it just the case that it's nearly impossible to achieve huge memorable changes in the world without being a bit of an arsehole? You've got to have a massive ego to think you can take on such a challenge, and so it's really not that surprising that pretty much everyone who achieved massive changes for the good turns out to have been a bit of a sod round the house and have various other unattractive traits.

Silli, there is no need to resort to such tactics, really.

To me, what I feel people are trying to discuss is the negotiation that, as a woman or person of colour, you have to make with history. History is filled with men who have done great things and are heroized by society. But chances are that each of those men will have held derogatory opinions about YOU, and it hurts... For all their high ideals of democracy and progress, they would not have extended those ideals to you....

Take Charles Darwin. He's one of the men I most admire for his amazing contribution to our knowledge, yet he argued that women were physically and intellectually inferior to and more childlike than men. Logically I know that he was of his time, but if he'd met me he would have told me to get back in the kitchen and that I would never be able to achieve the intellect of a man. That hurts. But I can't write him off cos he's awesome. That's the negotiation you have to make, and its a tad depressing.

So white Jewish men have not been oppressed? What about the amazing things schindler did?

Darwin, Alexander fleming, Einstein?

messy sorry. I read PARP and that's he first thing that came to mind.

messy I kind of agree with your first paragraph but not applied to Gandhi.

Well that's ok Silli, we don't have to agree on everything! In spirit of reconciliation I will do some more research on him before I jump to conclusions...

Now I must go to bed because Monday morning is just a few hours away and I have yet to dig to the bottom of my dirty laundry basket for tomorrow's clothes...

eclectic how about Charles Dickens. He is one of my fav. Writer/story teller. What did he do for the white western female?

I love Darwin too. He naturally knew that the female form is the more evolved of the species and therefore he probably did not do much for the feminist cause thinking that we don't really need help.

The suggestion here is that they aren't quite so worthy, that at best they and their achievements are "tarnished," and at worse, they don't qualify for being admirable, inspirational or heroic, if you are a good feminist

Not surprising, look at who is advancing the argument. Its standard Old Skool FWR pattern, where unless you held you were a poor Feminist.

Im sorry, but there are white men who have contributed significantly to civilisation...surely that's not a shock? There are also plenty of white women...not sure how "white" is relevant? In fact not sure how this whole thread is relevant to furthering women's rights...

wickety I agree with you re. The white male theory (if we select to put Jews (Israelis? ) into the 'Asian' bracket. ). But this thread is not meant to be patronising to no-whites is it?!

Something that is often forgotten is the Nobel Peace Prize 1993 was awarded jointly to Nelson Mandela and Frederik Willem de Klerk. It often takes 2 to tango.

Also, people are not ignoring you but still trying to come up with an answer. How about Shakelton? Sorry for spelling. iPhone won't let me spell. Great leader. What did he do for females? Henry the 8th?!

You can't put Jews in Asian bracket... What about Greeks, Spanish, italian, French... Hell, what about every white male or female who ever contributes anything to civilisation? I seriously have problems with 'white male' being the definition of evil in feminism.... I have a problem with any racial and gender stereotypes... But hey, that's just me... And i call myself a feminist...:)

I am new to mumsnet. Have only been posting for a month or so. So maybe I do not understand feminism. I also work in a VERY male majority environment. Note I have not used the term dominated as I in my workplace have equal voice to my colleagues. So I fail to understand what this is all about. This undertones concept that one is a twat even when one fights all this evil from the world unless he says something nice about females and singles them out as a cause.
Please don't start telling me off for this view!!

I see you're point Wickety. I think there are white men who have done admirable things on a level with Gandhi and assk, we just aren't told about them all the time. I think Einstein, Darwin and fleming have changed the world undeniably. Also, I know no one means to offend... But I don't think "of colour" is a good terminology. I prefer non white, if that's what you mean. Or black or Asian etc.

Your even, phone spell check.

Tim Berners Lee.

The Web was probably the biggest blow against oppression in the 20th centrury. Arguably the Twitter team have made the biggest difference in the 21st so far.

Eclectic

"I think there are white men who have done admirable things on a level with Gandhi and assk, we just aren't told about them all the time."

No, I dont think there are any at levels of Gandhi, MLK, Dalai Lama and Mandela at all and that is why we are not told about them.

Another thought is, should (privileged) people like FW DeKlerk be more praised because they did not need to stand up to oppression and they did? (I'll have to think this one through myself)

I dont think this thread had anything to do with 'colour'. I do however think that some comments on here re. womens rights in India etc were patronising.

Lets move on from race/colour etc as that is not the intention of this thread.

Now, lets look at a current situation that is happening now.

David Cameron is our democratically selected leader. What has he done for womens rights in the UK? What has he done for Human rights in Tibet? What about womens rights in SA?! What about womens rights in the UK? Why are there so few female board members? Why are so many women struggling to feed their Children in the west? etc

He is in a very good position to make a change. This is the question humanist and feminists should be discussing. It is relevant for now.

What about Stalin/Lenin?

Communism/Marxism helps the feminist cause... Everyone is equal?!

Maybe we can look at the good things Stalin and Lenin did? Millions followed them?!

Being contentious, Hitler 1.0 got Germany out of appalling recession. Sadly, Hitler 2.0 started a major war and a pogrom, both traditional things any ambitious Euro-dictator had to do.....

But he didn't sleep with pre-teen naked girls at least, so by some people's Feminist standards he's a decent egg :o

what'

But hitler could not get it up, Gandhi controlled and did not let it go up. Therefore Gandhi wins!