Is feminism all about man hating?

[PedanticPanda]

When feminism is brought up around my DP and my other friends they all say the same thing,

I agree with feminists who want equal rights for men and women, but not feminists who hate men and want women to be treated better than men.

Do these feminists actually exist? I assumed that feminism was all about equal rights etc, I thought all the man hating was a stereotype but wasn't actually true, but, most people I know seem to think this is the idea of the majority and it's the minority of feminists who want equal rights.

Umm, no, I certainly wouldn't presume to call them an idiot

I think being angry at the status quo is not the same as hating men. But the two can easily be confused by an uncritical observer, or someone who wilfully wants to muddy the waters

I agree with the first point, but I do think there are those who use Feminist analysis - and IMO mainly Rad Fem analysis - to cover man-hating beliefs, and that tars all Feminism with a bad name too often for my liking.

As others have said, no, feminism isn't about man-hating. Fallingoffthefence makes some excellent points both about what it is and why some people mistakenly think that is what it is about.

• Some folks just believe the stereotype of the man hating feminist without questioning. There are similar stereotypes for other people - like that teenagers are all thugs, old people are all senile, single parents are all scroungers, etc. Some folks believe these as well, but that doesn't make them correct.

• Feminists challenge the status quo. Anyone who does that will ruffle feathers and those who are afraid of change will (not surprisingly) sometimes say nasty, untrue things about those who challenge conventions.

• Those who feel they stand to lose something if we have a more fair and just society are unlikely to heap praise on feminists, either. They may believe that for women to gain more rights, men will have to give some up. They may rationalise that the current situation is just the "natural order" of things, or even deny that they have any privilege to start with. So, they'll hardly heap praise on a movement that wants to change the structures, traditions and institutions based on patriarchy and male privilege.

So, some say feminists are man haters out of ignorance - genuinely not knowing that this isn't true. Others will do so deliberately because they oppose what feminists believe in.

There are a couple of other key points from fallingoff's posts that I wanted to pick out.

• I like the analogy of the environmental movement, where there are some environmentalists who really seem to hate humanity and show this through what they say and do. That doesn't mean their views are representative of all people who call themselves environmentalists. Same goes for feminists.

• The quote from Andrea Dworkin sums up the position of feminists nicely - they believe in the humanity of men. Her life partner (whom she married a few years before she died,) John Stoltenberg, pulls no punches when he says that men should demonstrate their loyalty to humanity over their loyalty to manhood. Feminism is not about hatred, violence or superiority but about recognising and valuing the humanity in all people, regardless of sex.

John Stoltenberg is gay, so perhaps there are things he finds easier to say about men than hetero guys would.

I think when people are uncomfortable about something, one way they try to dismiss it is by making ludicrous exaggerations that are easy to attack, rather than addressing the real issues. So, "feminists hate men" but also "If I don't shave my legs I'll look like a gorilla" or "If I don't wear a bra I'll give myself a black eye". Probably we're all guilty of it at times.

But if feminists hate men, who was it, and what did she do or say exactly? I would bet that anyone who makes that accusation wouldn't have any concrete examples and wouldn't have looked carefully enough to find the tiny number of women to whom it might apply.

On the other hand, there are numerous men who've proved by their behaviour that they hate women--some of them already violently dead or in jail, some walking around doing harm. And yet it's a topic that very seldom gets mentioned.

I agree 100% with the points made by earlier posters - that the real problem is the number of men who hate women, and also that as feminists (in the main) we have a higher opinion of men, since we believe them capable of so much more.

Imo feminism is about the ideas that not all men are potential rapists, not all men want to leer at surgically enhanced 18yos, women and men should have equal opportinties which includes in parenting and there should be specialist support for women in difficult situations that arise because they are female.

Takver said. I agree 100% with the points made by earlier posters - that the real problem is the number of men who hate women, and also that as feminists (in the main) we have a higher opinion of men, since we believe them capable of so much more.

When you say men though are you meaning all men? Your post seems to suggest that you are talking about men as if they are a unit rather many different beings and personalities. Of course we all expect more of men who abuse women or anyone else for that matter. The thing is I actually have a higher opinion of women than men. I think mostly they have more humanity than men but I have known men who are wonderful and wouldn't hurt a fly but I have known women (not many) who thrive on conflict and are not happy unless they are causing trouble. All my life I have tried to not go out of my way to harm anyone so why would you expect any more of me?

I agree with your points Takver, but curious why you think Stoltenberg identifying as a gay man makes it easier for him to be critical of/challenging to other men than say a straight man or a woman. He doesn't speak only to gay men but all men, and even gay men experience male privilege (at the same time as heterosexist oppression of course.)

I agree with your second post - in my experience, those women who've had the "lowest opinion" of men, who've had the least regard for their humanity, have been women who reject the principles of feminism and believe their best interests are served by carving out their own advantageous place within a patriarchal system. They know they won't achieve recognition, status or validation on their merits alone, and feel legitimised in using deception and manipulation to get what they want and need.

Feminists, on the other hand, will at least be honest with men, even where the truths may be painful for them to hear.

I think 'ShoutyDogmatist' might have to be my new MN name, actually...

I hate men.

THOSE BASTARDS.

I think 'ShoutyDogmatist' might have to be my new MN name, actually...

Hmm I'm sure you were joking but I should point out that the definition of dogmatic is Characterized by an authoritative, arrogant assertion of unproved or unprovable principles. Not a quality I think that any of us would aspire to. :-).

Oh, FFS, I know what dogmatic means.

And there was me thinking that dogmatix was just the dog out of Asterix.

Oh, FFS, I know what dogmatic means.

I did say I thought you were joking and put a smiley at the end of my post so I think the aggression is unwarranted. And yes I would have said the same to a man if he had shown a similar amount of aggression to a jokey post.

"Shouty Dog" would be a nice screen name though! :)

Impatience yes, aggression no. I'm sorry if you feel got at. I posted in haste. In fairness to me, it was a rather patronising post.

Well I'm sorry if it came over as patronising and as somebody who often posts in haste about issues I feel strongly about I am grateful for your gracious reply.

Yay! PARD breaks out on FWR!

BTW on reflection I think it was patronising too.

Only one snog per thread.

Only one snog per thread.

Spoilsport. :)

Sorry, I was trying to say the problem is those men that hate women (ie the men that abuse their partners, men that are happy to pay women shit wages, etc etc) - not that all men hate women. I don't believe that at all!

And when I say feminists expect more of men, I mean that I think on the whole feminists consider men to be equally capable of humanity, emotional competence and ability to run a washing machine. I would say that at the moment society is at fault in that it leads many men to be lacking in these areas.

(Kritiq, I'm afraid I've never heard of Stoltenberg, I think that was a different poster.)

Agree with the posters who have said that misogyny is a massive problem in the world. I don't see much evidence of man-hating from feminists or non-feminists (although I do actually hate non-feminists so if they happen to be men then yes I hate them). Although even that's not true - I don't hate non-feminists, I just think "Really?, You really think that? OK, interesting" and walk away.

I do think if we ever got to really examine the extent of misogyny in the world, we would scare ourselves. When people say things like "Gandhi was misogynist" they could just have a point. But in our world that simply does not see misogyny or recognise it as a wrong, it sounds shocking and therefore it must be that the author is a man-hater. There is more on Gandhi's views on women here www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2010/jan/27/mohandas-gandhi-women-india

Misogyny is not treated the way hatred of a particular race would be. It is invisible and even where it is visible it is tolerated. Small example - South Africa were banned from the Olympics for not allowing black athletes to compete. What do you think has happened to Saudi Arabia who won't allow women to compete?

Actually the pressure is very much on to ban Saudi, hence their recent announcement that they will allow women to compete, but oh dear, they don't seem to have any female athletes who could qualify (well one, but she is an equestrian and her horse is injured. Which they knew).

South Africa were banned from the Olympics for not allowing black athletes to compete. What do you think has happened to Saudi Arabia who won't allow women to compete?

If South Africa had had half the Western world's oil reserves I am sure there would have been more flexibility.....