Is feminism all about man hating?

[PedanticPanda]

When feminism is brought up around my DP and my other friends they all say the same thing,

I agree with feminists who want equal rights for men and women, but not feminists who hate men and want women to be treated better than men.

Do these feminists actually exist? I assumed that feminism was all about equal rights etc, I thought all the man hating was a stereotype but wasn't actually true, but, most people I know seem to think this is the idea of the majority and it's the minority of feminists who want equal rights.

That's a great blog post, Beach. It reminds me of the Gavin Beck book we did in Feminist Book Club about the power of fear - which covered noticing when your boundaries are being pushed and not being afraid of being rude for acting on it.

I think your statement about your white privilege is also interesting and I will try and bear that in mind as an example.

I just returned to this thread after a pleasant night's sleep - and Beachcomber has done all the hard thinking/articulating that I thought I needed to do. Nice one! :)

namechange why is your sense that it's not personally very nice being thought of as one of the 'oppressor' class rather than the 'oppressed' class more important than the fact that women are systematically oppressed?

I mean, I'm white. It's not personally very nice being thought of as one of the oppressor class. But I am one. I'm white. I'm not rich but I was born to richer parents in a safer area because my parents were white, and theirs, and theirs, and theirs... I got to go to university and get my first jobs without worrying about being picked for 'tokenism' reasons. I don't get pulled over that much. I don't get "randomly" searched in airports. I don't get 'stop-and-searched.' I don't get stared at in remote rural parts of the country. Wherever I go in the UK, people look like me. Politicians look like me. Police officers look like me. Newscasters and pop stars look like me. My Whiteness tells me: The world is your oyster!
I get all these benefits of being white before I even TRY to benefit from social racism, before I even actively oppress anyone. Because I'm white in a racist society, it doesn't matter that I try not to be racist, I get the goodies anyway.

So it would be a bit rich if I spent time in anti-racist company insisting that they notice me and give me a medal for not personally being racist, and soothe my feelings about the fact that some nasty anti-racists might think that, because I'm white, I'm a racist.... even when I'm NOT! It would be a bit rich if I spent lots of energy insisting that some anti-racist activists tiptoed around my feelings instead of, y'know, talking about racism and how to stop it. Can you imagine walking into an anti-racism activism group or forum and saying "Give all your time and attention to me, Ms Whitey, instead of doing what you came here to do, which is stop racism! If you don't do this, you're anti-white!"

Now, if you're male in a sexist society (and we DO live in a sexist society) then insisting that some anti-sexists are anti-men and that is wrong and we should devote lots of time and energy to how wrong that is - is a bit rich.

whatme the thread has moved on slightly from this, but

"But why would you ever argue there are none, especially as there clearly are? You just show yourself up as someone who can't see it, and then you've lost any credibility from the get go.

Multiply that by many interactions and you have a movement that won't convince anyone, the opposite in fact."

I am not saying there are no feminists who hate men. I am saying that in twenty years of being an 'out' feminist I've never met one. The majority of feminists I know are rather like me, in fact, they live with men - some of them even birthed and breastfed and nurtured one or two - and so my response to "feminists are anti-men" would be "gosh, I've never met one. Could you tell me which feminists you know who are anti-men?" because if I know, say, two hundred feminists and none are anti-men (and some ARE MEN!), then it suggests to me that maybe these anti-men feminists are statistically outliers rather than the norm. Maybe they're not statistically significant or statistically meaningful at all. Maybe they're just brought up in an attempt to discredit anti-sexist activism, to shut down conversations about why sexism is wrong, and to make everyone feel better about the fact that 2 women die from DV a week and 1 in 5 women are raped in their lifetime, because HEY, even though we have all this evidence that men despise and maltreat women in the UK, look over there! That feminist says she hates men!

Pfft. It's a diversionary tactic, but protecting the bodies and minds of women and girls from the men in their lives who hurt and disrespect them is too important for me to be diverted. So I response "That's interesting that you say that, I've never met a single anti-man feminist" because (1) it's True and (2) it forces the speaker to either justify their prejudice/attempt to discredit anti-sexist activism, or at least reveal it some more.

Precisely blackcurrants. I agree so much with what you say above.

And at 'give me a medal'.

Blackcurrants said 'namechange why is your sense that it's not personally very nice being thought of as one of the 'oppressor' class rather than the 'oppressed' class more important than the fact that women are systematically oppressed?'

That is the polar opposite of what I said. I said that such feelings are understandable, and that it isn't my place to judge anyone who feels like that. I don't know how you arrived at the opposite conclusion. Have you confused me with someone else?

And personally, the white privilege thing is not something I am ignorant of, although people here do seem to like to regurgitate this point. Privilege based upon sex, race or class is not a new concept. I have a mixed-race wife of 19 years and two kids, so I am fully aware of issues that non-white people face in the UK. And I have only mentioned that because blackcurrants' post seemed aimed at me. If not, please excuse and ignore that last comment.

I would like a medal, mind. Well, by 'medal' I mean 'some jaffa cakes.'
[wistful]

bloody bugs got in the bloody chocolate and I had to throw it out. I hate summer in New Jersey sometimes.

namechange I apologise if I misread you. I thought that the whole 'she doesn't know me from Adam" indicated that you found this a sticking point. It's early here and I haven't had any coffee yet. I'll go back and re-read later. Now I must walk the dog!

No problem, blackcurrants. Statements/meanings are easily misread or misunderstood on a forum like this. I am as guilty as anyone sometimes

Putting hatred aside, does anyone here have any feelings of prejudice that might affect their day to day dealings with men? For example I'd admit to a certain jealousy of the confidence and privilege that they appear to have.

To give an example when I'm in a mixed group of men and women the topics are usually very male centred; male singers, politicians, sportsmen etc and I often feel envious as it would be so nice to have men praising women's achievements (other than aesthetic). I don't think it affects my daily interaction with men (except for a pathetic appreciation of men who break the mould) but I do feel a certain resentment IYSWIM.

I'd quite like to get paid 100 cents of every dollar, instead of 72cents. Erm, is that the sort of thing you mean?

Messy, funny you should mention this, because its something we discussed at work recently. It was centred around the 'banter' that occurs in the workplace, and how we react to each other. We as a group (a 60-40 majority of men) tend to concentrate on sarcasm and poking fun at each other, whether it be clothes, new haircut ('who did that to you? we'll get them back for you' etc), malapropisms etc. We aren't aware that women do this to each other - it appears to be far more complimentary, such as 'love your new hair-do/dress' etc. We could not imagine a woman taking the mick out of another woman in quite the same way!

Now, we may just not be party to it, or there may not be enough women in our office for this to take place, so everything is anecdotal. However, we also noted that the same sorts of exchanges take place on social networks such as twitter and faceybebo, again along gender lines.

Is it something that anyone else would agree/disagree with? I am not sure that I resent women being nicer to each other. I would guess that someone will now pop up with how we are all expected to conform to gender stereotypes of women being the 'nicer' sex, men jostling to be the 'alpha' etc., but I am curious to know if you have noticed this too.

I remember talking with a woman who said "[this random person] didn't know me from Eve..."

I said, "Not Adam?" and she replied, "Well, it's clear enough that I'm not Adam."

Ah, as soon as I read messy's post but before I'd got down to ncg's the word that popped into my head was banter.

The tyranny of banter is something that infuriates me about some groups of men sometimes. My workplace was very male-dominated when I started, and I just felt imprisoned in the banter sometimes. It is just one way of interacting, but it so often becomes compulsory. I think men often impose banter on women. It is a controlling thing, a means of not taking women seriously (mock and belittle them under the cloak of 'banter') and very often a way of getting women into sexually-tinged conversations they absolutely don't want to have (in my experience).

Eldrich, I have worked in male-only groups too. The 'banter' is the same but the language is worse - much worse. Nobody would dare mock one of the women's haircuts/outfits though. It isn't seen as the 'done thing'. It can be a bit wearing at times, and it does seem to be the default mode, but the general attitude is to give as good as you get, cos that's just how it is.

I can see how you might see that excluding the women from this fake 'abuse' might be seen as exclusionary or unnecessary, but it seems to stem from politeness, and a recognition that they just might not find it funny. At the root of it all, I think there is more than a little male-on-male competition.

Blackcurrants yeah that kind of thing!

Re. the humour: I kind of like the way men banter and take the piss out of each other. I'm aware that with my female friends we do take the mickey but only to a certain extent but would NEVER say anything negative about anyone's appearance but that's probably because women are socialised (with the force of a meteorite) to feel sensitive in that respect.

When I'm with men I always feel they don't get my sense of humour cos it's quite self deprecating but with women I feel more comfortable ........ hmmmm so much to think about ..... you lot are not good for my mid year resolution to pick DS up on time!

the general attitude is to give as good as you get, cos that's just how it is

I think that's right, and it is part of my problem with it. Some groups create a banter culture (and Hothead I agree with what you say about it) and it then gets forced on others. A lot of the sexism and racism people experience in workplaces comes from just this kind of thing.

Aha! Couldn't find it at first, but here you go: an article I read a while back about the tyranny of banter as bullying you can't complain about:

If you like banter you are an idiot

Good one. My DH always says 'banter' is a euphemism for arseholery.

Well, that's me put in my place

Give me office banter over women wittering on at work anyday. Hair and Hello and kids and clothes and what are yiou having for lunch - aaaargh.

namechange repeat the mantra "it's not all about me" and you'll be fine.

I have a sense of humour and like having a laugh. One of the things I've noticed about expat life is that the British sense of humour is very, erm, unique. Now I come back I see why other nationalities find it extremely aggressive and rude. I can socialise with friends and laugh for hours, coming home with sore smile-muscles, without the sort of putting-someone-in-their-place aspect that 'banter' seems to involve. A lot of banter seems to be policing people's expressions of masculinity. "Oh, you've got that kind of car? Well clearly you have small testicles! HAR HAR!" or whatever.

(slight tangent: One of the most convincing arguments for the existence of the patriarchy that I ever heard was someone pointing out all the ways that men denigrate other men for not being 'manly' enough. "If it's so 'natural' that men are this way," she said to me, "why do they have to work so hard at it?" )

NCG, heavens, I AM NOT GETTING AT YOU. I am just trying to discuss this. I am agreeing with you, and then going on to add a point of my own.

That was my attempt at banter on MN!