Is feminism all about man hating?

[PedanticPanda]

When feminism is brought up around my DP and my other friends they all say the same thing,

I agree with feminists who want equal rights for men and women, but not feminists who hate men and want women to be treated better than men.

Do these feminists actually exist? I assumed that feminism was all about equal rights etc, I thought all the man hating was a stereotype but wasn't actually true, but, most people I know seem to think this is the idea of the majority and it's the minority of feminists who want equal rights.

"'I agree with feminists who want equal rights for men and women, but not feminists who hate men and want women to be treated better than men.'

I have a question: You're at a party, restaurant, or some other happy social situation and someone says the above to you. What would your immediate response be?

mine would be "I don't know any feminists do you know who hate men and want women to be treated better than men, and I know loads. Who're you talking about?" and then watch them flap their mouths like a fish for a bit. If they came out with something cogent and seemed interested in discussing it further, I might go into the "lowest difficulty setting'' idea I posted that's here because that introduces the idea of privilege and systematic oppression without getting anyone's backs up too much. But that's IF I was in the mood to politely educate.

It's far more likely that I would smirk into my drink a bit then back slowly away from the tool. Or possibly start crying hysterically. Who knows, my lady-brain is full of whimsy and ruled by emotion! :)

argh, borked that. that should start

My immediate response would be "I don't know any feminists who hate men and want women to be treated better than men, and I know loads. Who're you talking about?"

• and then the rest.

I would say: "You're a bit thick aren't you?" and smile sweetly and sympathetically.

I might try my Harry Enfield 'Mr Cholmondley-Warner' impression - 'Women, know your place!'

My immediate response would be "I don't know any feminists who hate men and want women to be treated better than men, and I know loads. Who're you talking about?

and....

"You're a bit thick aren't you?" and smile sweetly and sympathetically.

While very tempting, I don't think its quite the way to win friends and influence people :)

If you want to influence them positively, you have to argue the point and IMO a better approach is a defusing concession followed up with your thinking - "yes, a small % of Feminists are anti male, but they don't speak for the majority - now here is what we think etce etc etc..."

whatme I am rarely on a mission to convert belligerent types while I am at a party. As I said, it depends on my mood and energy levels but I can say what you quoted perfectly politely, with a friendly smile. Caling people out on 'stuff some bloke said down the pub' is a useful tactic.

I would use my old standby 'I'm sorry you feel that way'. (But I really like 'You're a bit thick aren't you')

There is no point discussing anything with a person who thinks anyone should take that sort of tripe seriously.

That statement is about fear of losing out now that there is real competition -- it's not a reasoned comment about feminism.

Alternatively, I would ask who the man hating feminists are. Name names, etc. Describe what it is about them that makes them identifiable as man haters. I would ask for details of their agenda and references where I could look it up.

I would ask them if they could direct me to the toilets/bar/cloakroom/nearest exit.

Thanks for your links and posts blackcurrants - and nice to see you.

But why would you ever argue there are none, especially as there clearly are? You just show yourself up as someone who can't see it, and then you've lost any credibility from the get go.

Multiply that by many interactions and you have a movement that won't convince anyone, the opposite in fact.

OK. If I say "Well, yes there may well be feminists who hate men. I've never met one, but I suppose there must be a couple somewhere."

Now what?

If I say "Well, yes there may well be feminists who hate men. I've never met one, but I suppose there must be a couple somewhere. Now what?

"I haven't seen it, so therefore it doesn't exist" is never a convincing argument, especially if there is reason to suspect not seeing is aided by hands tightly clamped around the eyes.

No, I haven't said they don't exist. I have said that there might be some somewhere, even though I have no personal experience of them. Now what?

Whatmeworry - because it is a 'gotcha'. And a well known one. And a boring one.

And because it is offensive to women who have experienced extreme male violence and have good reason to have feelings of hate.

And because it fudges the issue that some women have feelings of hate, not because men are men, but because male violence is a constant threat to women in a patriarchal society.

Because it fudges the issue that feelings of hate towards male violence are founded in fear.

Sheesh.

beach
some women who have experienced male violence could have good reason to hate men, maybe thats reasonable, but is it rational?

if you sufferd violence from one unhinged marxist would you then hate all marxists?

but most of all, your not at the receiving end of being pre-judged for being a man so it isnt your battle, so you care less about it.

it's nice to be judged on what you do rather than what you are.

Men who care what women think of men as a group would do better to fight male violence and patriarchy, than spend time and energy accusing feminists of man hating.

There isn't one unhinged man in the world perpetrating male violence over women. There are millions of men doing this. And they are backed up by power structures, by organised religion, by customs, by etiquette, by traditions, by rituals, by gender roles, by socialization, by society itself. Escaping male violence is impossible in patriarchal society because it is an integral part of society. It is woven into the very fabric of society.

And frankly men who get upset and take it personally that women are frightened by societal level male violence and oppressed by it and live our lives according to it, and that we don't like that, need to have a word with themselves.

I'm white and I get that some people of colour resent me and my privilege and hate what my 'group' has done to them. All I have to say to them is 'you're right - I benefit from white privilege, I benefit from white supremacy, I benefit from white violence, and I accept that it isn't much comfort to you that I personally try not to be racist, that I personally am not violent.

It Isn't About Individuals.

If for the sake of argument, one removed 'feminist' and 'man hater' from that statement I'd agree with it.

I.e. ( paraphrasing slightly ) I agree with those who want equality. I do not agree with those who want to favour one group over the other.

Fair enough.

Add feminist back into the statement and I'd still agree but question if any feminists actually want female supremacy. ( other than some crack pot ).... and where they'd got that impression from

If I were at a party and heard the phrase... I think I'd say ' well I agree about equality, but I think man hating supremicists , are very rare , extreamist and not repressentive of feminism and the millions of good women who struggle for equality.

Wasn't this all mentioned on R4 Womens Hour last week ?

I would guess the world view of males in the OP's life are informed by a red top and old episodes of Benny Hill.

peoplesrepublicofmeow it is entirely rational to fear and hate oppression.

Although women who do so are constantly accused of irrationality, if not insanity.

"it's nice to be judged on what you do rather than what you are."

Yeah, that would be great. Maybe sometime in the future women will be!

I also reserve the right to be offended and angry at domestic violence. It sickens me. For a woman to be fearful of men as her default position is completely understandable if it is all she has known. I am no expert, but I believe it is common that women who experience it while growing up also have similar relationships in adult life. Therefore, hatred/fear/uncertainty on their part is a legitimate feeling, and I would understand if such a person had those feelings towards me if she didn't know me. I don't think rationality comes into play - it is a survival instinct.

It's Schroedinger's rapist extended to societal level.

And it is extremely rational - it is based on lived experience and being able to engage one's brain and observe the reality of the world one lives in.

In a society where violence against women in all its forms costs the country more than the annual defence budget it is good sense.

I am not claiming it is about me personally, HH. I don't take offence. I am just saying that for some people it is a legitimate concern, given that we are talking about women who may feel hatred as a default position. She wouldn't know me from Adam.