Surnames - is this a step forward or the state taking on the role of domineering husband?

[TouTou]

Just interested in your thoughts really. As feminists, like. ()

I moved to Quebec and have been forced (yes, literally forced) to take back my maiden name. I am not allowed to take on my DHs name (which I've had for several years,) in the interest of 'equality'.

I consider myself a feminist. It took my 10 years for me to finally marry DH and after that I kept my own name for 3 years.

When we had DCs I wanted the same name as them, (I've worked in healthcare and have seen several times problems with obtaining consent caused by family members having different names). My DH, again, felt really strongly that he wanted them to have his name as he is the only son of an only son (ie, the last of his name) and I have siblings to carry on my name. Also, he is very attached to his family and I don't really respect my Dfather, so again, not didn't feel as passionately about it as he did. It took me a while and much chin stroking, but in the end we all became 'The TouTous'.

In other words, I wasn't forced into having his name, but came about taking it through long consideration.

But, because Quebec is very much an 'equal' province, women are not allowed to do this. And because DCs still seem to take on the fathers name (just shows you can't grow equailty in a day), most of the DCs have different names to their mums.
I'm pissed off about having a different name from my DCs (again, it causes problems at border crossings with the USA etc) and the state having a paternalistic attitude that women are so put upon that government should tell them what is best for them.

What are your thoughts on this?

can't you just change it by the equivalent of deed poll?

It seems odd to tell someone 'you can have any name you like, except for that one'

I agree Chunky! It does seem odd. But here it is:

"Both spouses keep their birth names after marriage and continue to exercise their civil rights under that name, i.e. they must use their birth name in contracts, on credit cards, on their driver?s licence, etc.

This rule applies to all spouses domiciled in Québec, even if they were married outside Québec.

However, women married before April 2, 1981 who were already using their husband?s surname before that date may continue to exercise their civil rights under their married name."

Does Québec not have a deed poll type thing maybe.

I don't see how forcing mothers to have a different family name to her children - ie forcing her to keep her father's name, has anything to do with equality.

!! My goodness they are strict - I just went to wikipedia to see about deed poll and apparently you need a 'good' reason to change your name for official purposes (5 years use is apparently good enough if that helps) - I can only guess at the reams of paperwork you'd have to go through though..

DS was born in BC, and I was quite impressed at how all our rights worked even though DP and I aren't married - looks like Quebec has gone far too far the other way.

I don't know that it's a feminist thing (although if it's the norm for children to take father's surname then that's a bit of a hangover) but I'd certainly find it a bit of an infringement on my general freedoms

Do the children have to take the father's name legally ?

My aunt changed her name legally. She did explain the reasons to me - something about it been harder to use a false name in Quebec and a marriage certificate wasn't 'legal' enough, but I don't think I listened that closely, because that doesn't sound that convincing.

Is the solution to allow people to choose any name when they register a marriage then ? That way a family unit can all have the same name but no need to keep the history of extended family names ? Or old surname becomes middle name ?

That's how I felt too Chunky. I agree with equality, and I would be up in arms to hear about a woman being forced to take her DHs name, and here is the state doing the same thing - in the name of equality.

Blistory - they don't, but most do. Many do hyphenate their (amazingly long) names, so now you have families where the kids have 4 surnames. Surely that's just crackers too!
Hothead - I tried this, but everywhere treats the name on your driving licence as gospel, so I am back to my maiden name. And frankly, I respect my DH way more than my Dfather, so feel a bit peeved about it.

I think it's a little similar to the burqua debate in France. Should women have freedom of clothing? and if it is restricted, who should be the one to dictate - the family or the state. Having now had the state dicate something to me, I'd rather educate the families and leave things as they are in the UK/

No but if the parents became first name, old surname, new family name and the kids became first name, new family name, you wouldn't end up with ten names for the next generation

toutou I thought of the burqa parallel as well.

I agree with you that, in general, we should let women make their own choices, and use education rather than laws to encourage women and men not to choose to adopt sexist traditions.

That said, there has to be a point at which the law steps in and says no, you should not do that, even if it's your tradition and you would choose to, because it's too harmful to women. I'm thinking of practices such as suttee and FGM.

I'm not sure whether burqas are beyond that point or not. But name changing I would say is definitely on the "educate not legislate" side of the line.

Completely agree with that minipie. Definitely forced marriages as well should be on your list. But arranged marriages, where both parties are choosing it freely, I feel are okay.

I think as someone who really thought hard about my choice of name and who considers herself as a feminist, to have my choice dismissed out of hand is a bit...antifeminist? (I think?)
(Not to mention that my old name is bloody difficult to say for most Brits, let alone poor French people. Another factor in the change. Hence also why I chose not to double barrel as well)

If people are married elsewhere, change their names on all official documents and then move to Quebec, is this obligation also retroactive on them? And would the provincial authorities pick up the tab for changing all the docs? Sounds pretty big-brotherish, tbh. Do they also have a list of "approved" forenames for babies born there, as per some countries (including in Europe)?

They have always managed in Iceland.

It's a good system there. Women are Firstname Mother'snamedottir and men are Firstname Fathersnameson. eg good old Magnus Magnussson

jkklpu - exactly that! I've been Mrs Toutou for 4 years now, and have to change everything back again to my former name.
Not sure about approved list of names, will check that out.

Hully, I quite like the Swiss way. The couple/hers/combo have to have the same name, whether his or hers. Actually, sod it, I quite like the British/Canadian way - it's your decision whether to take it or not and the state should have no say in what you call yourself.

Princess Consuela Banana-Hammock?

I think Phoebe already took that one. Did she ever change it back?

But I do agree it's v irritating being told what to do.

i think some border crossings are more zealous than others, i don't quite have the same surname as my children, but have never had a problem crossing over

this was in ontario though, perhaps we are more relaxed

Chibi - it's not too, too bad here, but we did get questioned about it on our border. Never had that before when I had the same name. In manyways, it's good they check, but it's just another irritating me!

Ah, Ontario. Give my love to Lake Erie!

Since when was feminism about 'choice'. It is about liberation from patriarchy and not being socially forced into taking your husbands name is part of that. Wish we had that law here.

How is it liberating for women to be forced to keep your fathers name, and in many cases have a family name different to your own children?

The OP says that while children do not have to be named for their father, that is what actually happens in the majority of cases.

If you are going to have a law like that you need a society which does not automatically name children for their fathers.

But Margery - in this case, I feel that the state has become massively patriachal and frankly, I'm not a big fan of the state telling me what I can or can't call myself.
It feels a little finger wagging to me. "there there, little woman, you're too weak to stand up to your DH, are you, hmmmm? Let me force this thing on you instead. Not too keen? Too bad. Now run along."