Surnames - is this a step forward or the state taking on the role of domineering husband?

[TouTou]

Just interested in your thoughts really. As feminists, like. ()

I moved to Quebec and have been forced (yes, literally forced) to take back my maiden name. I am not allowed to take on my DHs name (which I've had for several years,) in the interest of 'equality'.

I consider myself a feminist. It took my 10 years for me to finally marry DH and after that I kept my own name for 3 years.

When we had DCs I wanted the same name as them, (I've worked in healthcare and have seen several times problems with obtaining consent caused by family members having different names). My DH, again, felt really strongly that he wanted them to have his name as he is the only son of an only son (ie, the last of his name) and I have siblings to carry on my name. Also, he is very attached to his family and I don't really respect my Dfather, so again, not didn't feel as passionately about it as he did. It took me a while and much chin stroking, but in the end we all became 'The TouTous'.

In other words, I wasn't forced into having his name, but came about taking it through long consideration.

But, because Quebec is very much an 'equal' province, women are not allowed to do this. And because DCs still seem to take on the fathers name (just shows you can't grow equailty in a day), most of the DCs have different names to their mums.
I'm pissed off about having a different name from my DCs (again, it causes problems at border crossings with the USA etc) and the state having a paternalistic attitude that women are so put upon that government should tell them what is best for them.

What are your thoughts on this?

Minipie - What do you mean by "realistically the state might have to intervene"?

The children might have either the woman's or the man's surname.

How do you work that one out though?

At the moment in the UK, and in Québec, judging by the posts on here, it is a million miles away from children being just as likely to be named for their father as their mother. Vast majority of children are named for their father.

So in the UK now you have loads of mothers with a different family name to their children, and in Québec the law means that most children have a different family name to their mother.

I cannot see how this is a good thing.

It surprised me that so many women are happy to have a different family name to their children.

I missed the bit about realistic intervention, sorry! Not seeing brackets today

DP and I both have a different family name from DS!

Bonnie I meant, if the state wanted to ensure that equal numbers of mothers' and fathers' names were passed down through the generations, they would have to not only stop the tradition of women changing their name on marriage (as Quebec have done) but also stop the tradition of babies being given their father's surname.

I don't agree with either intervention btw - just saying that both would be necessary IF that was the result a govt wanted to achieve.

SQ do you have DCs? If so what did you do about surnames? I am currently wrestling with this myself... I have two surnames (both my mother's and my father's, as my mother didn't change her name) so don't have a simple option of double barrelling with DH's name.

been over this upthread!

I have always been feministy, was a Ms from teens etc
Always assumed I wouldn't change my name
DH was already double - barrelled

What were the options? I wanted to have the same name as my children. I didn't feel that strongly connected to my name. DH did to his. He suggested triple-barrelled (seriously!) and I said don't be silly. I took his name. I'm not fussed TBH, although his is rather long to write out.

I get that's not a very feminist move but personally (and meaning no offence to others who have done differently) I don't feel that having a different name to your children is very feminist either.

As long as we need family names then i would think having to give children a completely different family name and both parents can change to that name if they wish would be the only way to do it.

Otherwise there are practical issues, and social issues (tradition) and so on.
eg upthread someone said why didn't we take one of his names and double it with mine. the answer is that his whole double-barrell is his name, and if we had dropped one it wouldn't be his name any more, and whichever of his parents got dropped would be really upset.

What we do do, is carry on the mother's first name as the middle name of the eldest daughter. I can go back about 6 generations of women like that which is really nice. carried it on with DD1.

how odd! and i wouldnt be happy to be told what my name had to be either!

dp and i are not married, IF we ever get married, then i wont be changing my name as it is part of who i am tbh and i dont like the historical reasons that women changed names ie ownership, another reason i dont like marriage the ownership/father giving you away thing! so if we do get married will have to be a non traditional ceremony, not in a church as we arent regligious and with out own vows etc :)

our children have a double barreled name, mine-dps and luckily it goes together well. BUT it was an issue when we had ds1, my mil did not like it at all and for years dp's mum and sister would address cards, letters etc to the children as first name, dp's name and no mention of my name at all!

once the boys got old enough to talk i made sure they knew their full name and THEY corrected relatives that missed out my surname! now all their post has my name on as well.

i remember being HUGELY irritated when we were visiting the boys great grandma in an old peoples home and we had to sign in, mil got their first and she signed in herself, dp and the children all with her surname (which was her husbands and dps dad obviouly) and left me to sign myself in. i 'may' have crossed out the childrens names that she had signed in and re-signed them in myself with their correct surname!

anway she still doesnt like it, but she doesnt really like that we arent married (rolls eyes) but they are our children and it was our choice. when mine are old enough to have their own children they can do what they want and i will respect that, i am not bothered about the name being carried on, i just wanted MY children to have my name and not a different name to me!

In France parents are allowed to combine their surnames and give the two, hyphenated, to their DCs. All DCs with the same two biological parents must share the same surname (so either Hisname, Hername or Hisname-Hername).

However, when those DCs grow up and reproduce, they are not allowed to pass more than one surname each to their DCs. So my DD, who is Miss HisnameA-HernameA, who reproduces with Mr HisnameB-HernameB, might have DCs called HisnameA-HisnameB, or HernameA-HernameB, or HisnameA-HernameB... etc

Why do we need surnames anyway? Why can't we just use first name - middle name. Or our usernames?! Or serial numbers randomly generated by government computer? Sorry getting bit carried away ...,

Or serial numbers randomly generated by government computer?

Given that I have never had a complete medical history, education record or financial background - I might even prefer that.

Mind you, the lack of complete financial data has worked in my favour more often than not ...

Bonsoir - under that system it would be nice if it became customary, for example, for girls to keep the mothers surname to add to their new name, and bots kept the fathers name - or vice versa.

What happens in reality? Is the Napoleonic system of inheritance much of an influence?

SardineQ: "and if we had dropped one it wouldn't be his name any more, and whichever of his parents got dropped would be really upset."

And there is the nub of the cultural pressure. ILs and families do get upset, and it isn't even them that is being asked to change their names - but they would be upset to see their name missed out of a grandchild's name - two generations on - but you have found it ok to lose your OWN name and not have your own children have your name - never mind your grandchildren. And what about your parents? No-one expected them to be upset!

I am absolutely not criticising or even commenting on your decision - but pointing out the sense of posession, dynasty and making a stamp on children down the ages that parents expect of male children!

Blu - it's all quite new legislation (the most recent dates from the beginning of 2005) so there hasn't been much of a next generation yet. A lot of French children I know have both surnames, but there is a certain amount of resistance among the older generation (teachers, GPs etc) about using anything other than the father's surname! My FOL even calls me by DP's surname when he writes to me... even though I am not married and will never change my surname ever.

TBH, I have no feelings whatsoever about which of mine or DP's surnames DD will choose to pass on (if at all) to her DCs. We gave her both purely for reasons of practicality as it is much easier to cross borders with a DC with whom one shares a surname, and both DP and I travel internationally with her without the other parent. Plus my surname is really easy to pronounce in French as well as English, whereas DP's is difficult to pronounce in French and very complicated indeed in English, so when DD is in England she can just call herself by my surname and not have to spell it out all the time!

The French system sounds pretty sensible.

Yes Blu totally agree with you.

Everyone needs to make the decision that was right for them.

My family is pretty traditional so they had no issues with me changing my name! The solution we came up with was a pragmatic one based on me wanting to have the same name as the kids, and taking into account the feelings of various relatives etc. I didn't feel very attached to my name so it wasn't a problem. Also I guess in our relationship there is no-one who could possibly be under the impression that I have become my DHs property

My mum winds me up by addressing things to us as Mr & Mrs DHfirstinitial Oursurname.

She does it on purpose, I know! Ha ha mum!

SQ missed your explanation upthread sorry!

My parents used the French system that Bonsoir describes. It works fine until you have to work out which of your two surnames (and DH's two surnames if his parents did the same) to give to your DCs...

YY that will be the proof of the pudding.

You are kidding yourself if you think you are a feminist and either you or your DCs take the man's name.

No-one has addressed the question of how future genealogists will trace their family tree with all these complicated naming practices.

MargeryKemp. Your comment is an example of why some people say that they feel unwelcome on the Feminist Board. I consider myself a Feminist and I took my husbands name for the reasons already given.

I don't know how people decide what to do with their children. Perhaps male children should take their Fathers and Females take Mothers. It could all get very complicated!

That was a bit harsh, Margery. Some feminists apply their principles to every single aspect of their lives. Others pick their battles.

I happen to agree that name-changing is a fairly simple feminist statement, but wouldn't go so far as to call this social compromise anti-feminist!

I really don't care how genealogists work out their ancestry or see it as a remotely feminist issue. Anyway, if you relied on surnames to do it you'd get stuck fewer than four generations back. Spellings were very idiosyncratic until around the 1940s, and an awful lot of people went by several names.

Won't someone think of the genealogists! [hmmm]