How do Radfems propose to tear down the patriarchy?

[Hullygully]

Just that. Interested to know how.

That is horribly disappointing

Quite. I do think you've inadvertently hit upon the reason for the hoo ha though...

Will stick to watching and waiting for the tearing down plans to be unveiled. I am v interested, tbh. Am v interested in the separatist idea. Not trying to continue hoo ha, honest.

Oops, x post. Not being smug.

Well, the main tactics I know of are withdrawal, a focus on women's efforts (so buying female, promoting women, placing our emotional energy into women) and a refusal to partake in heterosexuality.

We're nowhere near any of them yet (and might not ever get to the third one) so I'm happy to focus on those for the moment.

I do think the big unspoken elephant in the room though, is that men have the power to end this. They are the oppressive class. Asking women to identify and fix patriarchal oppression is a bit like asking Black South Africans to bring an end to apartheid. Personally, I'm all about non-violence, but if the women of a particular country rose up and pushed men out of the country I'd be inclined to support their actions.

Surely different RadFems have different ideas on how best to tear down the patriarchy.

I think people lump rad fem in with politics in that they assume that most believe the same thing, that there is one main leader and that everyone is working towards the same goal of getting your group to be in charge. As there are political leaders and usually a structure within political groups there tends to be a vision for gaining power. As rad fems aren't like a political party perhaps it's unreasonable to think they have one vision for removing the patriarchy.

I agree with Victor. I want the Patriarchy gone and equality for men and women. I think there are some ways that working within the system are useful but others where refusing to be a part of the system (say refusing to accept that prostitution is ok even if it is a persons choice) are better.

Oh YY Victor re men having the power to end this. This is why it is so important to consciously raise boys (and girls) instead of just bowing to societal ideas of what is female and male behaviour.

This is where it all strays off into utopian theory and female race, and continuation of the species, though. Or did someone find a way to reproduce without sperm and forgot to tell me? I mean, I know you can freeze it for a lifetime or so, but it seems to me that elimination of half of the human race might be a step too far. We are all people. And that isn't 'what about the menz', it's more about 'what about the human race'?

That isn't equality, or ending patriarchy, it's essentially culling.

Do you believe that a period of female superiority is necessary before equality? Or that actually, equality ain't ever going to happen, so let's tear down the patriarchy and replace it with a matriarchy?

Sorry, I know I said I wasn't going to post. Last one. It's all yours, Hully.

X posted.
That's about engagement though, Jing. Persuading men (even you do it by consciously raising boys) isn't a radical line.

Is it?

I think Jing makes a good point that RadFems are not a homogenous group. There are basic beliefs that all RadFems have, but also differences. Asking how RadFems want to tear the system down is like asking anti racists how they want to end racism. There is no 10 point plan that everyone signs up to - although it would be easier if there was!

But if you think of it as similar to wanting end racism. A liberal comparison might be - well we are always going to have racism, so lets pass laws, etc to make racism less virulent or harmful. A Radical view would be - lets end racism altogether. Some of the actions liberals and Radicals might do to achieve these different goals might actually be the same, but they will also be different.

And you can see this clearly in issues like porn or prostitution where liberals want to lessen the harm to women and Radicals want to abolish porn and prostitution altogether. But both Radicals and liberals will support DV shelters and campaigns for example.

There are certain issues where the different approaches come into sharp contrast. But lots of issues where the approach will be the same, even if the analysis behind it isn't.

Eh? Where did female superiority come from? Separatism is primarily withdrawal of labour - isn't it true that women do something like 80% of the world's work for 10% of the wealth? Let's see how far the global economy gets without us!

I've got to go out now. Bye all.

Nobody is saying we want to eliminate men. Actually there might be a few RadFems who do want to do this, I don't know. But everything I have raed RadFems saying do not say this. Youdo know lots of RadFems have male partners?

Can I ask what 'placing our emotional energy into women' means? I have seen it mentioned a few times. I get the other statements, just not this one.

There are basic beliefs that all RadFems have

What would you say these are eats?

I understand that you are fairly new to self-identifying as radfem from things you have said so assume your reading is all fresh in you mind?

It means spending time with women and not men; campaigning and volunteering around women's issues rather than men's, explaining our political perspective mainly to women and not men.

Hully - I haven't read all RadFem books. But I did do a post in the paddling pool listing the main RadFem beliefs and asking if I had missed any for others to contribute. But as no-one did I am assuming I covered them?

IN THE PADDLING POOL??

Hully - I also did follow up posts on the list when people asked questions to clarify it

Mad I have no idea if consciously raising children is rad or lib, I meant it more as a general comment WRT dismantling the patriarchy. :)

You know not once have I read on MN that any of the rad fems here want women to be in charge or female superiority or to destroy men. Radfems want equality.

Hully - thread in FWR - a very soggy one

Ok, I'll have a look later, got to go out now.

Thank you, Eats.

RadFems want women and girls to be treated as individuals. Its like that quote - "feminism is the radical notion that women are people".
Thats it - not female supremacy or domination - just to be treated as individual human beings deserving the same respect as everyone else.

No problem namechange. And apart from separatists it does not mean not having anything to do with men. It simply means for example this evening I am volunteering at something that helps very vulnerable women. I chose that over say volunteering at a men's hostel.

Of course I do, eats.
I was just commenting on Vic's notional view of a female uprising in a particular country and kicking out all of the men, which she would support, and taking it a step further.

There has recently been a documentary here where the idea was that all of the women were removed from a particular remote rural town for a week. Except, of course, when they actually worked out the logistics of this, it wasn't possible - there were women who were deemed too important (ie hospital staff). In the event, of course, the women who could be spared, all popped off to a spa for the week, and the tv cameras followed the men whilst they sorted out child care arrangements etc. It wasn't anywhere near as interesting as it promised to be.

What I found particularly interesting, was that it actually solidified the status quo. One guy planned a surprise wedding for his partner whilst she was away. And she leapt right into it. All sorts of convoluted bias, of course, but it had the potential to be a fascinating social experiment and get the folk to truly ponder equality. But it was just a half baked media reality show.