How do Radfems propose to tear down the patriarchy?

[Hullygully]

Just that. Interested to know how.

Agreed Victor. I was just pointing out that some Rad Fem articles had concrete methods for achieving their aims. There is quite a lot on MN about what is wanted, but not so much on the how to achieve it (or at least I may have missed it).

I don't see what that article has to do with concrete methods. The example given before the ten percent thing is that women flee the earth entirely, and the writer then goes on to say that what she envisages happening is something else entirely. But none of it mentions methods at all.

I was a bit at that article as well. Women fleeing the earth entirely didn't feel to me like an inspiring vision of the future. But I have pretty mixed feelings about my one and only stint in a separatist commune, so I guess I'm not really the target audience.

why are my mixed feelings italicised there? that looks really weird

Re the concrete methods reference, this is from the end of the article;

^My own personal vision is that women will cure the sickness that ails men and that men will stay around, hunkered in their man-caves playing the ukelele, leaving us in peace at last. As to what that cure may be, my best bet is that what?s wrong with men is that their androgens need genetic modification.

I?m serious about this. If we can do it with corn, men ought to be easy.^

I would stress that this is only one article, and I am sure there is some tongue-in-cheek aspect to it. I just found it interesting.

Are there any self identified rad fems on here?

Vic, I'm a liberal, and I want prostitution to end, and will work towards that. In the meantime, I think if we have to work with the system we've got, then those other things come into play, reluctantly. and there's no imminent revolution to suggest otherwise.

To say libs support prostitution as long as the working conditions are ok really doesn't sit neatly with this liberal. the realities of feminist politics are far more nuanced.

agree with madwoman - that 'sex worker rights' position on prostitution is more typical of marxist feminism, I think. Lots of liberal feminists are against prostitution.

Would you not view the abolition of prostitution as a radical feminist impulse, even though you identify overall as liberal? Genuine question to both madwoman and Prolesworth.

My understanding is that liberal feminism has faith in legal protections being enough to ensure that women choose to engage in prostitution, that they are not coerced, etc. (Of course I could be wrong).

For this liberal, the patriarchy will be elimated by working with the other stakeholders. the end aim is the same. Just that I can't see any realist way of achieving the elimination of the patriarchy utilizing any radical methodology. I love the idea of separatist communes, but the reality would be that they would exist (and do exist) as a niche choice. In the grand scheme of things, they make a great deal of difference to those within the walls, but none to those outside, which is where is truffle to see it as a radical choice to make a difference to society.

I may even be tempted to spend some time in one myself, but I wouldn't see it as in any way likely to rupture the patriarchy at any meaningful level.

I think this 'how' question gets to the very root (ha) of the difference between radicals and liberals. We all want the same thing (a society where gender does not exist), but liberals feel the only possible way this can come about is by engaging with it as it stands in order to change it, because there doesn't seem to be a more realistic option.

It's very sad. If there was a big red 'equality' switch, we'd be right there.

All of this is my own pottering, mind, and has bigger all to do with how any other rad or lib feels. I personally believe there's not a lot of difference.

Any true feminist is against prostitution .

I see the elimination of prostitution as a feminist impulse. Nothing to do with radical or liberal politics. (sorry, x posted whilst I was navel gazing)

I dunno Seeker.

As prostitution currently stands, yes. But say all the lovely aims were all achieved and then woman and men had the genuine free choice to sell their physical beings in a way of their choosing, how is that different from selling one's mental being, or physical labour? What is so sacrosanct about th e body?

A question, not a position.

And apparently I truffle. Which sounds jolly nice, and definitely not as angst ridden as struggle, which my iPad didn't like. Who knew apple was quite so sensitive?

Does it mainly come down to separatism then? The tearing down? I thought it might be a bit more exciting.

Hully, I don't see anything sacrosanct about the body, and my concerns about prostitution are definitely to do with power, and very tied up in women being seen as commodities for the pleasure of men, (not just the women who are forced/ make whatever choice to work as prostitutes,) but for the impact on all women, so impossible to view in a vacuum.

Interesting question, though.

Dunno, Hully. I've never been able to work out the methods radfems intend to use either, which is why I occupy my fully liberal, got to engage with other other stakeholders to make meaningful changes and tear it down stance.

As far as I am concerned, we all want the same thing, which is why it makes me tetchy that I'm viewed as in need of educamation as I haven't quite grasped it yet. but as I said, that's me. Lordy knows, we probably all have a different view.

In some future utopia-then possibly the situation could be reassessed. But as things stand prostitution without oppression is not possible.

fair dos

For me personally, it's the tearing down rather than the working within that is important.

How that is achieved is less important.

Although actually, it would be much more effective if men would stop being violent towards women, because they are the ones that hold the power in the patriarchal system. Women have identified the problems, but short of mass extermination can't really do much about male behaviour.

I think withdrawing until they get their act together is probably the best non-violent bet.

How that is achieved

Surely that is absolutely crucial?!

Ok, well how do you think women are to achieve the cessation of male dominance by non-violent means? What do you think would be effective?

We could kill them all, but that's not very nice. We could legislate, but that doesn't seem to work tremendously well.

I'm sure a variety of women will have a variety of tactics to deal with patriarchy on an individual scale. I'm sure the same thing might happen on a national or global scale.

Quite. I feel exactly the same way, Vic. The end result is obviously the most important. I just think you having got a hope in hell's chance of tearing it down by withdrawing into a separatist space, so engagement is necessary to make change.

I can see the virtue of withdrawing to get your shit together and come up with a plan, but for me withdrawing isn't the plan. It has to go further. Withdrawing doesn't eliminate patriarchy. Doesn't change society. It gives a space within society, but makes no changes to society itself. It's a radical lifestyle choice, but it isn't making any difference to the overall system.

You wouldn't be suggesting that I feel engaging is more important than equality, would you? Because that would be a misreading of my point. I see engagement as the only way to tear down the patriarchy. Not, ooo, I want us all to get along, and if equality happens as a result, that would all be hunky dory....

I suppose my question came from all the ongoing hoo-ha about rads and libs and you're a feminist and you're not etc.

What I considered to be simply about politeness and kindness was dismissed and put down to rads and fems being different and the rads wanting to tear down and the libs working from within and the libs not being quite the ticket on the ol feminist front.

That's what then got me interested in the ok, so how ARE the rads going to "tear down" etc.

Which is what this thread is about...plenty of other threads about the hoo-ha!

I don't think the Rad Fems have a believable practical strategy to affect change, and therein lies their problem.