the paddling pool

[Alameda]

get your flotation aids here (don't look at me though, I genuinely can't swim)

Mini I feel there are ways to change the nuclear family for me and my children - to broaden my experience and theirs, just by valuing a wider network of friends, family, and community. Just that it doesn't have to be the prescribed, isolated, do everything together and allow no-one else in, sort of set up ?

Is that any help ? I'm sure there's much more I could do along these lines ....

(Interesting how many of us came out as 100% rads ! That's a bit of a surprise )

EatsBrainsandLeaves - I'm in good company then We certainly don't play out any gender-typical roles at home and we have the backing of all our family. We talk about equality and balance and sharing responsibilities and also talk about how all toys, cartoons, games and opportunities are open to both boys and girls. This is how I was brought up and I didn't turn out too badly (most of the time!)

My son sees me and my partner taking the same roles - working, doing chores etc. But will be exposed more and more to sterotyping and that concerns me. Personally, I certainly make deals wth the patriarchy. I also appreciate that as a woman I am in a more privileged sub-set than most. We also live in a nuclear family.

I've never really questioned whether I am a feminist because I have always been one; but so many women on FWR call themselves feminists and others have called them anti-feminists, so I took the quiz out of my own insecurity I don't take the results seriousy - just a mildly interesting piece of fun.

Thanks KRITIQ for the further links.

I came out 100% liberal feminist, 80% radical feminist, and 0% anti-feminist, which is pretty much what I would have guessed. I ignored the gun question as I didn't feel it really applied to the UK.

I will argue passionately against rape myths, porn, prostitution and misogyny - irl and on MN. I have not given the political/capitalist/marxist arguments an awful lot of thought in the past, but I've been reading up on them on FWR and I find it really interesting. The more I read on the topic the more interesting I find it, and (I think) the more radical I become.

I also wear make-up, have long hair, like nice clothes, shave legs, stay slim etc. I think 'making deals with the patriarchy' sums it up nicely. And I have a husband, 2 sons and a daughter - so not so much of a man-hater.

I've been thinking about this idea of making deals with the patriarchy. Do most feminists feel that it's an okay thing to do? And if you don't make deals with the patriarchy what kind of impact does that have in practical terms? The more I think about it the more I see how pervasive the oppression of women is and how conditioned we are to believing its okay - and that's just a few days!

Frak - Is it possible not to live in society and not make some deals with the patriarchy? Maybe, but personally I am not sure it is. What deals you think are okay to make will vary from individual to individual.

For example, I think everyone would agree ignoring sexist jokes a group of men are making say in a bar, when you are frightened that you will be attacked if you challenge them, is I think a deal virtually everyone would make. Ignoring sexist jokes from your parents because you don't want to upset them by saying what they are saying is wrong, is a deal lots of feminists wouldn't make - but some would.

So it really is up to you to come to an idea of what you think are acceptable deals that you can live with. But obviously that may change. When you are seriously ill, having a hard time, etc, you may make deals that at stronger times you wouldn't. And that really is okay. At the end of the day we still need to live in a patriarchial society.

Frak - Just to say personally, that I won't make deals other feminists will. But part of that is also about how I would feel about myself if I did make those deals. For me it is also about self respect and not making deals that I don't feel I have to. But not everyone feels the same.

It's perhaps a subtle thing but I think I prefer the idea that every woman has to make her own way through the patriarchy, or through life in a patriarchal society, than the idea of always "making deals with the patriarchy"

Just feel that the former idea is possibly more respectful of women

Juggling - interesting. Why do you think every woman has to make her own way through the patriarchy is more resoectful of woman than making deals with the patriarchy?

Juggling, I agree with that. "Making deals with" sounds a little too much like we're dealing with the devil.

But isn't the patriarchy kind of like the devil? I don't mean in terms of an evil figure plotting against women. But patriarchy kills so many women around the world and causes lots of terrible suffering for women and girls - particularly those most vulnerable. So it is evil surely?

just seen eats' list.

Not a radfem then.

I like VGRP sex.

Perhaps because then it's more about the woman's own agenda than about the agenda of men around her. She has her own eyes on what's important to her, and just responds to stuff that comes up in whatever way best fits with her own agenda - what she feels is most important to her and the people and things that she cares about.

I think 'making deals with patriarchy' is an Americanism.

A similar sentiment is 'doing what you have to to get by in patriarchy'.

Or 'doing what you have to to survive in patriarchy' (used in more extreme situations where women are under threat).

I'm not too keen on the notion of women making their own way - I prefer the solidarity of making it about patriarchy and not so much about individual choices. (The idea behind 'the personal is political').

It is evil; thus I don't like to think I'm "making deals" with it. Makes it sound like women are getting something out of being oppressed.

Deals to me sounds like in order to get somewhere women are doing things they don't want to? Leg hair, for example. I hate shaving, epliating hurts, waxing is expensive. Most of the time I leave them be but for special occasions I depilate and this summer when we're away with friends I will too - is that making a deal or is that me being too weak?

I'm the one who is responsible for childcare because my employer is more flexible than DHs, possibly because I'm female. I also took a job that I like but it's the one I would love so we could give DCs a stable home life that DHs job makes very difficult. Did I make a deal there or is it just facing up to society? I like to think it would be the same if I had DHs job but the reality is that I wouldn't be able to and continue BFing which is important to me.

I think I'm struggling with the position I've got myself into even though on the surface DH is very supportive of my working (unusual for military wives/mothers here) and he does pull his weight when his work allows.

Hully - Of course you can be whatever type of feminist you want, or not a feminist at all. But you can like PIV sex and be a RadicalFeminist. Its not about personal enjoyment. It is about understanding and agreeing with the analysis. I am sure, although I haven't asked them, that there are RadFems who do and enjoy PIV sex.

It's not the one I would love

I really don't think the 'deal' thing is at all related to the expression about the devil.

As, I say, I think it is just an Americanism - they use the word 'deal' quite a lot.

It is just a way of saying that women shouldn't beat themselves up about certain behaviours - no woman is an island type idea.

I don't like the term PIV, I think it is contradictory to feminist ideals.

Make sex woman centric, worship the goddess etc. VGRP.

I don't want a label, I'll just be a feminist I think.

I think you just have your eyes on your own priorities Frak and good for you - things ranging from enjoying special occasions without causing any social friction (smooth legs !) to relaxing on holiday with friends and doing everything to facilitate this. Then bigger things like giving your children a stable home life through your choice of a stable job, which also enables you to continue breastfeeding which is important to you.

I like Stephen Covey's "7 Habits of effective people" (sorry to mention a book by a man !) - with it's ideas of having some vision, and knowing your priorities. I think all that helped me a lot, along with other writings such as Victor Frankl - to just go for what you want in life, and what is most important to you.

At the end of the day whether that means in any given situation having hairy or smooth legs - it's up to you ! ( No deals with the patriarchy needed ? )

Juggling - I agree feminism is not about having a go at what individual women do. But neither is feminism going for what you want in life, or what is important to you. That is really individualism you are talkinga bout. Fine if you are not a feminist, but not if you are not.

"Neither is feminism going for what you want in life"

Really ? That is news to me !

Frak - In terms of the questions you ask.

Shaving - We all know that being hairless in legs, etc is a female beauty myth. Some feminists decide to stand against that and not shave. Some think there are more important issues to worry about. I don't think anyone can give you an answer of what you should do though. You might find reading the Beauty Myth useful?

Childcare - If bfing is important to you, you need to be in a situation where you can do this. In terms of jobs though and who does the childcare, I think the issue is that there shouldn't be an assumption that one partnerw ill do it or do more. It is something that you need to talk about and agree on without the assumption that one partner's job or career is more important then the other partner's.

Juggling - If you think about it, a woman might want to start a brothel and make lots of money by using trafficked women. An extreme example maybe, but just to illustrate the point that feminism is not about doing or going for what you want in life.

Maybe if you have more faith in women though it's a philosophy than can sit alongside feminism quite happily.

I guess most feminists have other beliefs and philosophies alongside their feminist ones ?