Radfem2012 banning trans people

[allthegoodnamesweretaken]

www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2012/may/25/radical-feminism-trans-radfem2012?fb=native&CMP=FBCNETTXT9038

Has anyone seen this? I don't really understand this bigotry against trans gendered people.
If we're trying to make the world a better and equal place through feminism, surely excluding people who also want to do this because of their genitals or the gender they assign themselves is going to make this impossible and is a bit hypocritical?

[madwomanintheattic]

Anyway, not ignoring anything further, but have RL stuff to get on with. Will have a read in the morning.

[Nyac]

madwoman, it's not the categories men and women that lead to stereotyping - it's male supremacy which has to invent sex roles and a gender hierarchy in order to oppress women and train men to dominate us.

There are only two sexes, and a very tiny percentage of the population with intersex conditions. This is basic biology.

[Nyac]

I thought you said upthread that you didn't claim to be a woman kim, so that quote about transwomen wouldn't apply to you would it? Or have you changed your mind?

[Nyac]

Being a human female is nothing more than a piece of paper and a doctor's signature. Thats' what we've been reduced to. Our physical existence is meaningless, despite the fact it's our physical existence that is under attack by men through rape, domestic violence, sexual assault, female genital mutilation, forced pregnancy, forced abortions, denial of reproductive rights, murder, right up to gynocide of female foetuses and infants - it goes on and on. But female humanity - means nothing according to men. And according to a lot of women too sadly.

[madwomanintheattic]

Aw, thanks for the explanation, Nyac. I would never have known if you hadn't explained.

It's the male supremacy bit that needs dismantling, non? And trans and fems would both agree. Why would you think that creating a third sex would help with that? You're the one that suggested it, not me. And then lectured me there were only two sexes. I assume by 'category', you mean sex, anyway...
Will read the rest tomorrow.

[Nyac]

Are you really being sarcastic about that? Really? What I've written there? Massive ongoing global male violence obviously needs the chirpy smilies I suppose.

Don't you get that denying women's physcial reality, and writing us legally out of existence legally and medically is another act of male violence against us? That in societies where people's existence is governed by laws, if the law doens't recognise you, you're kind of fucked. Hitler did it to Jewish Germans, and Israelis do it to Palestinians. It's a coloniser's tactic.

Do you really not have a problem with people with penises demanding (and getting) access to female only space? I guess women should just suck it up.

I didn't say trans would be a third sex, I said it would be a third legal category, for legal purposes to offer legal protection from discrimination.

[Nyac]

So you call yourself a transwoman then do you Kim? It took a while to get to that didn't it?

[Prolesworth]

Well said nyac

The GRA is a terrible, nonsensical bit of legislation which was brought about as a result of transactivist groups' lobbying. Transactivist groups were consulted on that legislation, it was not imposed from on high. On the other hand groups representing women - the recognition of whose existence has been erased by this stupid piece of legislation - were not consulted at all.

[GothAnneGeddes]

Nyac - But they're not "biological women"! They'll never go through all those ever so important things such as pregnancy! Or has there been a rad fem agreement you've given them your permission to identify as women. Anyway, intersex conditions are far more common then you think, it's not such a tiny percentage.

Also, stop throwing the word "madwomen" about it's ableist and unpleasant and quite, frankly the sort of language male sexists tend to use. Funny, that.

Finally for all the talk on "biological women", some rad fems use incredibly gynae-phobic language, the Penis in vagina discussions with "PIV puts us at risk of pregnancy and we might die!!! Pregnancy kills!!!!"

N.B Driving a car also puts you at risk of death but I don't see rad fems going on/lecturing other women about the dangers of that.

[Nyac]

Hey, I listed what I'm worried about Kim:

"our physical existence that is under attack by men through rape, domestic violence, sexual assault, female genital mutilation, forced pregnancy, forced abortions, denial of reproductive rights, murder, right up to gynocide of female foetuses and infants"

You'd have to give a pretty good argument why my concerns should turn away from those issues and on to what's bothering you.

[StarsAndBoulevards]

Is that discussion happening here, GothAnn? Stop derailing.

As for "throwing around the word Madwoman, what the hell is Nyac supposed to call the poster with that name?

[Nyac]

"Or has there been a rad fem agreement you've given them your permission to identify as women."

Funnily enough radical feminists don't have the power to give or withhold permission to anyone to call themselves a woman. It's men who have awarded themselves that right with their Gender Recognition Panels. I bet you aren't sarcastic about those.

"Also, stop throwing the word "madwomen" about it's ableist and unpleasant and quite, frankly the sort of language male sexists tend to use. Funny, that. "

It's her name, or aren't you reading properly? WTF? What do you want me to call her?

"Finally for all the talk on "biological women", some rad fems use incredibly gynae-phobic language, the Penis in vagina discussions with "PIV puts us at risk of pregnancy and we might die!!! Pregnancy kills!!!!"

N.B Driving a car also puts you at risk of death but I don't see rad fems going on/lecturing other women about the dangers of that."

That's a very random thing to pull into the conversation. A scattergun approach to arguing I take it. But whilst we're there 500,000 women die in childbirth every year and millions more suffer serious and even permanent injury. I'd suggest you rethink your sarcasm, because it's coming across as callous.
www.oxfam.org/en/news/2008/pr080308_international_womens_day

[VashtiBunyan]

Is death in childbirth now not a feminist issue? When did everyone get on that boat? I must have missed it.

What on earth is now a feminist issue? Relative attractiveness of diary covers? M&S percy pig sweets - not as good as they used to be? Teapot spout shape?

[Nyac]

The Fistula Foundation

Hurrah for PIV sex! It's fabulous.

[Nyac]

You've got female on your passport and driving licence kim, which means you're claiming to be a woman. I was getting called disingenuous but I think it would be a lot closer to the mark to call your posts that.

[StarsAndBoulevards]

Because MEN aren't routinely oppressed by women.

[RebeccaMumsnet]

Hi all,

Thanks for all of the reports on this thread.

Can we please remind folks of our Talk guidelines.

Discrimination of minority groups is not at all what Mumsnet is about and we will remove posts that are discriminatory when they are brought to our attention.

Many thanks to those who reported.