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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

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Radfem2012 banning trans people

1000 replies

allthegoodnamesweretaken · 26/05/2012 08:53

www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2012/may/25/radical-feminism-trans-radfem2012?fb=native&CMP=FBCNETTXT9038

Has anyone seen this? I don't really understand this bigotry against trans gendered people.
If we're trying to make the world a better and equal place through feminism, surely excluding people who also want to do this because of their genitals or the gender they assign themselves is going to make this impossible and is a bit hypocritical?

OP posts:
WidowWadman · 30/05/2012 20:19

I feel defined more by my experiences than by my biology.

SardineQueen · 30/05/2012 20:23

kim

What makes you male or female is your biology - chromosomes, hormones, sex organs, all of that stuff. At birth, for the vast majority of people their sex is identified as male or female.

Currently, globally, these sexes have genders linked to them. The genders include expectations surrounding behaviour, dress, attitude, attributes, likes and dislikes, and so on.

In our gendered world, the experience of being raised in the male or female gender is very different. Feminists are concerned with the problems caused to people of the female sex by the imposition of the female gender.

So a person with female sex and female gender (as imposed throughout life from birth) will have had different experiences growing up to a person with male sex and male gender from birth.

The experiences that made me become a feminist are ones that happened to me when I was in secondary school. These experiences are not the experiences of a male person (male gender). I personally am happy to say that a person who is male but raised from birth as a female with everyone "knowing" that they are female will have had the same experiences. But that doesn't happen so isn't really worth touching on.

This does not equate to "experiences growing up female make you a woman". The fact of being female at birth makes you a woman - when you grow up you are an adult human female. That has no preconceptions about behaviour attached to it, it's just a fact. In my case the experiences growing up female made me a feminist. Someone who abhors gender roles and wants rid of them.

StarsAndBoulevards · 30/05/2012 20:25

Sorry, in terms of "Biology is how we should be categorised", I mean in terms of "Am I a man, or a woman".

Experiences don't decide which you are.

SardineQueen · 30/05/2012 20:26

How can experiences define a person as male or female Confused

Experiences shape a person.

Beachcomber · 30/05/2012 20:27

It does seem that the word 'gender' is used to mean a different thing to different people.

I use gender for 'femininity' and 'masculinity'.

I use sex for 'female' and 'male'.

In radical feminist analysis, gender is a social construction and an oppressive binary hierarchy. Sex is a concrete biological physical reality.

I have no issue with male persons who wish to adopt femininity.

I do take issue with male persons who want the world to recognise them as of the female sex because they adopt femininity. (Good luck to them!)

(And I think surgery is a red herring to some extent - I agree with Jeffries that is is a form of body mutilation.)

Incidentally, as I understand things, Jeffries first started to have this view WRT to FTM transpeople - she bases her analysis on lesbian women who transition in order to find peace with oppressive patriarchal paradigms and expectations. Her analysis is that women should not need to go through body mutilating surgery because their identity is at odds with what (oppressive) patriarchal mores demand and impose.

WidowWadman · 30/05/2012 20:28

What I don't get is, if you abhorr gender roles so much, why is there so much focus on sex?

I don't like gender role thinking, but from that follows ( for me) that it's pretty much unimportant what sex someone is, too.

Beachcomber · 30/05/2012 20:30

Oops that should have read;

I have no issue with male persons who wish to adopt femininity. (Good luck to them!)

I do take issue with male persons who want the world to recognise them as of the female sex because they adopt femininity.

HotheadPaisan · 30/05/2012 20:31

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Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Prolesworth · 30/05/2012 20:35

"What I don't get is, if you abhorr gender roles so much, why is there so much focus on sex?"

Because feminism is a political movement to liberate one group of people who are oppressed by another group of people on the basis of sex. That's the injustice that feminists are fighting to end. Of course what sex someone is shouldn't matter. We're all human beings. But as I said to you upthread, wishful thinking won't stop the reality of our oppression and the only way to end that oppression is for us, the people who are oppressed, to take collective action.

Beachcomber · 30/05/2012 20:36

The reason feminists abhor gender roles is because they are the mechanism through which women are oppressed and dominated.

(The binary gender hierarchy which accords masculinity higher status then femininity.)

Because you see, there is no biological justification for the oppression of women (same as there is no biological justification for the oppression of people of colour).

And thus; we have gender.

SardineQueen · 30/05/2012 20:37

People who work on animal breeding programs think what sex the animals are is pretty important.

As do people who buy pet mice (my friend ended up with 20 from 2 "females").

Sex is important in loads of situations with humans as well. It is important for people to understand their own bodies - it is important for people like doctors to know about the differences - issues which only affect one sex eg testicular cancer, childbirth.... Of course sex is important.

What it is not important for is prescribing how someone should behave, getting them a job, deciding who looks after the children etc etc which is all gender.

StarsAndBoulevards · 30/05/2012 20:37

That's what I'm trying to get at, SQ. It seems the typical trans argument is "my experience isn't that of a man/woman"

And yes, experiences shape a person; they don't say that person is male or female.

kim147 · 30/05/2012 20:44

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SardineQueen · 30/05/2012 20:45

I think it would be very interesting to find out so am keen to get to that world as quickly as possible!

WidowWadman · 30/05/2012 20:46

Granted - sex has an influence on your biology, but that's about it.

"What it is not important for is prescribing how someone should behave, getting them a job, deciding who looks after the children etc etc which is all gender."

Totally agree with that. I also think it's not important for the question whether they can discuss politics, care about women's rights etc. I don't understand the insistence why this should be for women only, it feels like a contradiction in itself.

Beachcomber · 30/05/2012 20:57

WidowWadman do you accept that patriarchy exists?

And that we live in a male dominated society AKA male supremacy - ergo women are dominated?

Because this is why it is vital that women gather together is safe spaces where there are no members of the oppressing group present to influence proceedings.

It isn't actually about excluding men, it is about having the liberty that is gained when an oppressed group is able to meet without being dominated, policed and influenced by the oppressing class.

(Basic politics - same goes for people of colour. Do you find it hard to understand why people of colour might want to get together without the presence of white supremacists or people who benefit from white supremacy?)

kim147 · 30/05/2012 20:58

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WidowWadman · 30/05/2012 20:58

Nah, I really don't buy into the idea that you need to be separatist to effect a change for the better. Much the opposite really.

HotheadPaisan · 30/05/2012 21:01

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Beachcomber · 30/05/2012 21:03

Here you go for eloquent reasoning (written by a man);

Respect women?s-only space - There will be times in feminist activism when you are not wanted. Women?s-only space ? whether at Take Back the Night marches, consciousness-raising sessions, NOW chapter meetings, or University classes, is often one the hardest parts of feminist action for male feminists to accept. At the extreme, lesbian separatist feminists call for more or less complete separation from men, economically, politically, and sexually. Certainly if one has taken the painstaking effort to separate himself from the psychological and social structures of patriarchy, it is hard to accept being put back into the class of Men and excluded. Many male feminists experience it as a sort of reverse discrimination and feel that that sort of exclusion is just what feminists ought to be fighting against.

However, the exclusion of men by women and the exclusion of women by men are certainly not the same thing in the first place. In an excellent analogy that I owe to Marilyn Frye, it is nothing extraordinary for a master to bar his slaves from the manor, but it is a revolutionary act for slaves to bar their master from their hut. The attempt to classify women?s separatism under the same rubric of "sexism" or "discrimination" neglects the reality of power differences between the sexes as classes. In short, it ignores the reality of male privilege.

The male feminist, of course, is not ? or ought not to be ? himself a "master," and feminist women are certainly not "slaves." But despite all of their politics, they are still operating within a culture pervaded with patriarchy and misogyny, and necessarily are put into those positions to some degree, both when taking public action and even when interacting in private. When our campus group was planning the Take Back the Night march this year, one of the decisions we faced was whether to make the march portion of the event women-only. Certainly there are lots of men who have suffered sexual abuse (about one in thirty-three adult men has suffered violent rape; many more are survivors of childhood sexual abuse), and many more who support the survivors of sexual violence. However, we decided to make the march women-only. It is a far more powerful statement for women to be marching, without any men to "protect" them, through the streets at night. And it is more powerful not only for those who see the march from the outside, but also for those who are in it, the women who take back a power that they have been denied, without any need for men or male privilege. That assumption of power without the need for men also lies behind the women-only space in "private" speak-outs, consciousness-raising, and so on. Again, the problems caused by men?s presence ? as a class, not just as individual men ? can only be missed by ignoring the very reality of male privilege.

Beyond the politics, there is also simply a practical element: speak-outs and consciousness-raising simply do not work in the presence of men. No matter how committed the men may be to feminism, no matter how much the women may accept them as feminists, decades of pervasive psychological conditioning will still cause women to react defensively to the presence of men. It is well-known that women will not speak about their experiences of sexual and physical violation with anywhere near the honesty that they do in women?s-only groups, as in groups with both women and men (the same is true of men speaking about how they interact with women, in men?s-only and mixed groups).

What all this means is that there are times for feminist activism in which it is absolutely crucial to maintain women?s-only spaces. Committed male feminists must learn to overcome the personal feeling of rejection or "discrimination" that may come along with women?s-only spaces, and they must learn to respect women?s decisions to create those spaces where necessary. It also means calling out other men who do not respect these spaces (a perpetual problem with women?s-only meetings is that whenever they are advertised, men invariably try to sneak in or find a way to gain access), and making a committed public stand in favor of women?s right to create women?s-only spaces. They are profoundly not sexist; they are a radical strategy in the fight for justice.

WidowWadman · 30/05/2012 21:07

@kim

I understand that disruptive behaviour is no good - and if someone gets attacked for being disruptive or deliberately provocative, then that's ok in my book.

I've never met any transactivist who behaved like that. The only trans people I know are kind people who just want to get on with their lives. Without being shouty. Just wanting to be not bullied.

If I met a transactivist like the ones which keep being described on here, then I'd probably think too that their being arsy. But that then would be more because they're being arsey, and not because they're trans. And that's where I think it's getting unfair.

The whole thing about t that anyone who happens to benefit from the status quo not through choice but just because of the accident of their birth automatically is an oppressor or supremacist is alien to me.

I don't agree with everything you say, but I think you're making interesting points and make good contributions. But you get hurtful things chucked at you and excluded just because of your biology. How is that fair?

HotheadPaisan · 30/05/2012 21:08

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RulersMakeBadLovers · 30/05/2012 21:09

Because the revolution hasn't happened yet, WW.

No, I don't think that, kim. Because I already know plenty of people of both sexes who buck the stereotypical trend, or who want to. It's odd - what is fed back to us culturally often bears no resemblance to reality. For eg, I have sailed the Atlantic - my experience is no different from that of the 3 men who did it alongside me, yet I am looked at with some weird awe because I am a woman. I don't want to be. Yes, it was an achievement and of course I like that recognised and like talking about it. Additional praise because I am a woman is just patronising. Likewise, men who do their fair share of childcare or who work in nursing or other stereotypically women's stuff.

kim147 · 30/05/2012 21:09

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Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Beachcomber · 30/05/2012 21:10

It isn't about being separatist to effect change.

It is that separatism offers the oppressed group safe space, a taste of liberty and freedom, for a short time, from the chains of oppression. A chance to group and organise, an opportunity to discover than one's 'individual' dilemmas are shared by peers, and that there is a political foundation for all that...

All of which are recognised as powerful by the politics of oppression - hence the desire to thwart such gatherings.

Again - basic politics.

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