Radfem2012 banning trans people

[allthegoodnamesweretaken]

www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2012/may/25/radical-feminism-trans-radfem2012?fb=native&CMP=FBCNETTXT9038

Has anyone seen this? I don't really understand this bigotry against trans gendered people.
If we're trying to make the world a better and equal place through feminism, surely excluding people who also want to do this because of their genitals or the gender they assign themselves is going to make this impossible and is a bit hypocritical?

Just to be clear, Kim, I was quoting and agreeing with another poster (Stars).

kim, this point that many transsexuals 'would not believe that feeling feminine makes you a woman' is obviously important to you.

But why do you then check the 'female' box on forms? Why did the law get changed to recognize MtoF transsexuals as women?

I can see two reasons if I'm understanding rightly: first, people might do it because it is one of the accommodations we all make to live in a patriarchial world ? things we accept are not ideal, but we do, because otherwise the pressure of living in a world of gender stereotypes crushes us. We know these accommodations actually reinforce gender stereotypes ... but we make them because we can't fight all the time.

The second reason I can see would be, because the law makes it quite hard to get the surgery or help people might need to feel comfortable with their bodies. If that's a reason ? did the law blindside you as much as us? Why don't we fight to change it? Could we instead have a law saying 'if you want surgery because you hate the way your body is, you should be entitled to it'?

Or would there be something else beyond these two reasons?

Because, if it is those two reasons ... why is it wrong for radfems to worry about transsexualism changing the definition of 'woman'?

i dont feel feminine (although I arent sure what that entails exactly)
I am a woman

Oh ... of course, stars, brilliant post!

^ What bejeezus said.

I'm a woman. I have my own personality, my own interests and my own ambitions. None of which have anything to do with my genitals.

are operations done on the NHS or do they have to be privately funded (irrelevant to discussion, just interested)

Does Kim have me on ignore?

But this is the thing;we want gender obliterated. Not our sex definitions widened.

Kim - I always appreciate reading your contributiosn on threads like these. Although I don't agree with everything you say, they are always thoughtful and you never allege transphobia just because people don't agree with you.

Hothead - I have read figures of between 60-80% of Transexuals don't have genital surgery. But it wasn't broken down into male or female transitions.

See ... I half get what you are saying, *kim.

?A transwoman has had surgery. She looks, sounds and can pass for a female. She gives in her passport / driving license / ID - gender = male. What would happen??

Given photo ID exists, does it need to be an issue? Plenty of non-trans people look like the other sex, or their sex isn?t readily apparent. Perhaps you?re right ID doesn?t need to have the person?s sex on it (that?d be much my preferred option). Maybe it?d be best just to make people stop questioning how others look.

But I?m a bit confused here. You seem to be saying here it?s purely an issue of convenience (so, I guess, one of those accommodations to the patriarchy). But ? forgive me, I don?t want to nitpick but I feel like this is the heart of the issue ? you also seem to be saying it?s an emotional issue. I couldn?t help noticing on another thread we?re both on, you were sad when someone thought you were a ?he? not a ?she?. Given we are on the internet, this can?t be to do with how you ?look? or ?sound?, I would think? And you were saying earlier how much you hate masculinity and being identified as a male. So ? I?m sorry, I don?t really get how come you?re now telling me it?s all simple convenience, just to do with fitting into a world that isn?t ok with people who look a bit different from what our gender expectations tell us they ought to look like?

?The law - well if you want surgery, you do not need to be recognised as a woman. You are supposed to have changed your ID to a female name, had hormones and undergone RLE (real life experience - and I know you cannot experience living as a woman, you are experiencing living as trans). Then they will give surgery if they feel you are psychologically ready and you hate your body.?

Do you know why the law is as it is, then? It sounds like you are saying there?s really no need for it, they might as well not have redefined what ?woman? and ?she? mean ? but they have. Is this a big issue for transpeople too?

What I don?t get is, we?re told (inc. on MN) that it is so unutterably rude and illegal to question whether a transperson is in any way different from a person born into the sex they now legally are ? why?

LRD I dont understand why you would be expected not to question that--of course they are different. That is unquestionable surely

I would recognise their struggle, but that doesnt equate to being born a woman and raised a woman, through formative years

Do they really think they are no different to women?

If they do then that challenges my identity

And there is no middle ground there (?)

I agree Bejeezus.

And to me, suggesting that feeling 'feminine' = woman is an insult to our struggle. Years of women being forced to conform to imposed standards of behaviour and appearance have led to 'femininity'. Speaking more softly, removing body hair, forcing ourselves into corsets and high heels, painting our faces until it's considered 'ungroomed' to go bare faced, girls still being forced to wear skirts in many schools etc etc

The transitioning, the use of 'she' and even the passport box ticking doesn't bother me when people are having full surgery. I would be quite happy if the box was removed on passports/official forms - with all the other info they collect now it's less important than ever.

People who intend to retain male genitalia and adopt the outer 'trappings' of what is considered 'feminine' whilst demanding to be counted as women in every way, including access to refuges, and who expect women to add the word 'cis' fuck me off.