Radfem2012 banning trans people

[allthegoodnamesweretaken]

www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2012/may/25/radical-feminism-trans-radfem2012?fb=native&CMP=FBCNETTXT9038

Has anyone seen this? I don't really understand this bigotry against trans gendered people.
If we're trying to make the world a better and equal place through feminism, surely excluding people who also want to do this because of their genitals or the gender they assign themselves is going to make this impossible and is a bit hypocritical?

Kim I do and don't agree with you WRT activists.

Yes, activists try to hijack meetings for their own ends but that's usually as a form of protest.

For example, I would expect a vegan animal rights activist to protest a meat eaters convention. I would not expect them to demand a section on vegan recipes.

I would expect an anti war protester to protest a NATO meeting. I would not expect them to demand a seat at the table.

I would expect trans activists to protest a radfem conference. I do not expect them to demand space to discuss trans issues.

Except trans activists do.

ComradeJing - yes, that's exactly what this situation with the conference is like: men hijacking the discussion, insisting on being included, mansplaining feminism to us, invalidating our words, derailing by requiring us to repeatedly justify the validity of our having that discussion at all, all of that. That's why we need women-only spaces so that for once in our lives we are able to talk without this kind of policing. It's an absolutely deliberate, well worn method for silencing women. We are taught from the day we're born to defer to males and accept the meanings they have constructed from their point of view as the only way to view the world, in other words to accept as truth our own subordination. Look at what happens when even a tiny bunch of women say no to that - we get accused of bigotry and hatred. Looks a lot like projection to me.

ITA with ComradeJing and Proles.

And something I don't get is this notion of 'debate' that keeps coming up.

Lots of people keep saying that things should be 'debated' and that it is one-sided or somehow bigoted to want to simply discuss things without having a bunfight. When did that come about?

Dos it just relate to the policing of feminists feminism or do people apply this 'debate' rule to everything nowadays?

Do like-minded people no longer have the right to gather together and discuss their politics?

Surely it is perfectly obvious that radical feminism is resisted, criticised and ridiculed in mainstream society constantly - hence the wish for radical feminists to create a safe space within which to join together, meet each other and exchange with each other. Radical feminists are hurting no-one nor oppressing anyone by doing so. And yet They Must Be Stopped.

Are there lots of transpeople and non radfems speaking out about how they disagree with women being threatened and harassed by transactivists? Or does it just suit everyone that transactivism shuts up radical feminists?

I wonder if it partly annoys me so much because women are supposed to be meek and mild, not shout too loudly and not demand so much.

Yet I feel like trans activists want the right to be called female but to be able to act with male privilege and for born women to shut the fuck up and do as we're told.

It's very Pro Cake, Pro Eating it (to quote dear old Boris).

Here we go, Kim said this; Interesting article by Sheila Jeffrey. It sounds like she was going to debate transgenderism without actually having transgender people there. Seems a bit one sided as her target audience would not challenge her views.

SJ wasn't going to 'debate' transgenderism - she was going to present her political analysis of it. It would be impossible for this presentation to happen peacefully if transpeople were invited to the conference because they would disrupt it. There could be security issues for SJ too.

I think women have the right to analyse the redefinition of our sex that has happened as a result of the Gender Recognition Act, and talk about what it means for us with regards to our state of oppression and status in male dominated society. It is sort of important when the goalposts are shifted with regards to the identity under which your social group has been oppressed for as long as history can remember .

Transpeople say they are oppressed but they seem to have gained a remarkable amount of power in a remarkably short time.

Oh YY Beachcomber.

It's why the comparisons between the KKK and "whites only" meetings and RadFems meeting really annoy me.

Who exactly are RadFems hurting by meeting? Have there ever been any instances of radfems lynching or abusing trans? Or even men for that matter (since, obviously, all RadFems are men hating, hairy lesbians)?

No.

So the only logical reason for attempting to derail conversation and prevent RadFems meeting is to censor what they say.

Yet I feel like trans activists want the right to be called female but to be able to act with male privilege and for born women to shut the fuck up and do as we're told.

Yes, this. And we are oppressing them when we don't merrily go along with this.

X posting with Beach but still saying YY to your posts :o

I think women have the right to analyse the redefinition of our sex that has happened as a result of the Gender Recognition Act, and talk about what it means for us with regards to our state of oppression and status in male dominated society. It is sort of important when the goalposts are shifted with regards to the identity under which your social group has been oppressed for as long as history can remember

beachcomber you are articulating the feelings I have been struggling to understand, thank you

I agree with everything comrade has written

I agree too.

In our society, caring about women's issues is a luxury or a hobby - pushed straight to the side when something else comes along. The fact we're discussing, not how we feel and what we want to say, but whether we even have the right to feel or say anything about this, says it all.

You know, I am always on the side of the offender rather than the offended in situations like this. Because it's always a small, fairly powerless, fairly harmless group/event that gets the shit kicked out of it on the grounds that some fucker with more power or more money is 'offended'.

If someone wanted to organise a conference or discussion with the stated aim of harming other people; attacking them, campaigning to have their rights removed, destroying or confiscating their property, banning them from associating, then fine, protesting against that would be important. But I do profoundly believe in people's right to talk about how they feel and think and percieve stuff among the likeminded. Just now and again. If you have any kind of unusual or unpopular viewpoint, being able to talk and spend time with people who get it is absolutely life-enhancing. If a group of woo-peddlers wanted to have a conference discussing ways of talking to the dear departed, would it be fair or right for athiests (or raving fundie Christians) to insist on being let in to 'debate' with the woo-peddlers or they'd shut the whole event down?

Kim, that was in response to your comments about homosexuality, trying to imply it was the same as transgenderism. It isn't.

Here's the thing. The MTF trans community is trying to redefine what it is to be a woman, without being a woman. Yes, MTFs may have some similar experiences. But I'm pretty sure no MTF has crashed on the operating table whilst having an emergency hysterectomy.

Nor has any MTF been subjected to raising a child that they carried for nine months after being raped.

Nor has any MTF had to bring themselves off contraceptives, trying to find out, if in fact, it's the contraceptive pill which they're intolerant to; thus having to decide whether they'd rather have to put up with 10 day long periods, which happen on an irregular basis, (my "monthly" cycle, sans contraceptive can vary between 3 and a half weeks and 8 weeks).

There are so many things that women go through, that MTFs are never going to experience. And I'm not trying to reduce women to just being reproductive organs here, but in essence, it's what makes us different. And it's why we're oppressed. But every time a MTF utters "Oh, I feel like a woman because..." you're reinforcing patriarchal stereotypes of how us women are supposed to act and behave. No, you don't feel like a woman. You feel feminine, and thus, because you've been so forth conditioned, believe that means you must be a woman.

I'm not a woman because last night I went to dinner wearing a dress and a full face of make up. I'm not a woman because I cry at The Notebook (whilst providing a feminist analysis afterwards before Nyac and Proles tell me off... HONEST!) I'm not a woman because I love my son. I'm not a woman because right now, I'm wearing pink slippers. I'm not a woman because I can comfort eat my way through a tub of Ben and Jerry's in one sitting. It might make me what the patriarchy calls feminine, but I call bullshit on that one.

And there's a whole host of things I do that don't tally with what the patriarchy tells me I should and shouldn't be doing as a woman. Apparently, I shouldn't have been able to single handedly get my flatpack furniture upstairs when I first moved into this house. Apparently, I shouldn't have been unable to put it together, single handedly. Apparently, I shouldn't own a toolkit to rival my fathers. Apparently, I shouldn't be able to teach my son, should he choose to take it up in the future, how to dribble a football, or ollie a skateboard, nor should I be able to sit through most horrors without wincing... Well, according to the patriarchy, anyway (These, btw, are all things I've been told by my mother, my sister in law or my father; "Well, that's not very feminine, Stars...")

I'm fed up of being told how the hell I should act, based on my sex. But the trans community isn't removing the goalposts on how women should act; they're cementing them into the ground, and building four walls around them. Stop reducing feelings, and actions, and desires, and personality to our sex. Feeling less masculine =/= not a man. It just means you don't conform to societies expectations. If every MTF recognised that; if MTFs stopped putting a claim on womanhood just because they "feel like a woman"; then we'd be a lot fucking closer to getting rid of the gender code.

My womanhood is made up of my genetics; not how I feel.

Now, if you don't mind, I'm off to dress "like a man", and do all the shit women are supposed to do. And just to confuse the matter, I'm going to dress in the most "womanly" manner possible, and teach my son how to pull of a sliding tackle.

Fantastic post Stars.

Women should be able to talk about what it means to be a woman. Unfortunately we've been stymied by the men who claim to know the answer and can just talk over women until we shut up or give up trying.

Phew, was expecting a stern telling off for blubbing into my tea over The Notebook...

Well there's no accounting for taste

Ryan Gosling justifies everything (except the patriarchy.)

Have just read that Conway Hall have made the RadFem organisers withdraw the invitation to Sheila Jeffreys to speak at this conference. I am absolutely gutted.

Fantastic post, Stars.

Sums up my thoughts too in a way I would never be able to do, so thank you.

God stars....

Let's just imagine for a minute that a group of cismen wanted to hold a conference/meeting for those who had suffered or were suffering from testicular or prostate or penile cancer. Perhaps with an additional workshop on living with accidental (or malicious) removal or crippling injury to penis or testicles. Would radfems or indeed FTM transactivists insist on being invited to put their own viewpoint on this, otherwise they would campaign to get the event shut down?

What Stars said.

Especially this;

But every time a MTF utters "Oh, I feel like a woman because..." you're reinforcing patriarchal stereotypes of how us women are supposed to act and behave. No, you don't feel like a woman. You feel feminine, and thus, because you've been so forth conditioned, believe that means you must be a woman.

I feel it would be so much more realistic to talk about transsexualism in terms of transgenderism.

But we aren't allowed to do that any more - it is transphobic.