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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

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Radfem2012 banning trans people

1000 replies

allthegoodnamesweretaken · 26/05/2012 08:53

www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2012/may/25/radical-feminism-trans-radfem2012?fb=native&CMP=FBCNETTXT9038

Has anyone seen this? I don't really understand this bigotry against trans gendered people.
If we're trying to make the world a better and equal place through feminism, surely excluding people who also want to do this because of their genitals or the gender they assign themselves is going to make this impossible and is a bit hypocritical?

OP posts:
LRDtheFeministDragon · 29/05/2012 22:47

Oh, we have been over this and over this!

It is not what you are 'supposed' to have said, it's not that you have been 'misinterpreted' ... it is that you have said things that various people, myself included, have explained we find hurtful and offensive.

You appear not to give the faintest flying shit about this and I am so sick of people on this thread saying 'kim, we do sympathize'. Yes, we do. And I still will. But I can't go over it again.

I'm really sad this conference has got hijacked. I hope maybe next year there will be a chance to chat and not get shouted down before it's even begun.

kim147 · 29/05/2012 22:54

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VashtiBunyan · 29/05/2012 23:03

This thread has primarily been about women's spaces and the rights of biological females to define as a group. I didn't answer the question early about what it feels like to be a woman, because I can't think of any group that defines on the basis of a 'feeling' - trying to guess the internal feelings of strangers is a rather existential matter. When talking about group identity we generally base that sense of identity on either shared experiences or beliefs. In the case of biological females who want to identify as that, we are talking about shared experiences. Being a socialist, a Christian or a feminist is an identity based on belief. So I suppose the conference is based on people who share an identity based on both the experience of being biological females and who share an identity based on a belief in radical feminism. There are of course biological females who are not feminists and feminists who are not biological females, and other events exist for those groups. I don't see trans as being central to the content to this conference.

But the trans issue is important in other ways. Trans is one way of not conforming to the idea that constructions of gender have to be attached to a particular biological sex. But of course there are another two groups of people who have a history of gender nonconformity and defending the rights of people who do not conform to gender roles - gay people and feminists. And I suspect that is one of the reasons why this gets so heated, because the very people who are concerned with the same issue seem to be at odds with each other.

My family are now on our fourth generation of having some children who don't conform to gender, some much more so than others. And actually I don't know that; we could be on our tenth generation but I only know about the last four - some of whom simply would not conform. And we've all been pretty nonchalant about our children or siblings who did not conform. But I cannot say that if I had another child now, I'd know what to do. Because it isn't okay now to let children out of those restrictions, because let them out too far and there is a risk that somebody, some health or education professional or other person who holds a position of authority who knows your child, isn't going to let them out of that box because they have been 'trained' in transgenderism. And that isn't something you get to be nonchalant about; it is something that involves psychological tests, doctors, hormones, puberty blockers and surgery. And I worry for gender nonconforming children, and I worry that people who raise concerns about these issues, either because they're a doctor concerned about this or because they themselves belong to another gender nonconforming group are being banned and silenced. Most children 'diagnosed' as having gender dysphoria don't grow up to be transgender adult, but most of them do grow up to be gender nonconforming in another way (usually gay) and yet for some reason the only group who aren't being silenced on how these children should be 'treated' are transgender adults.

LRDtheFeministDragon · 29/05/2012 23:09

Thanks kim for that apology.

I'm sorry it's so tough, and I do see it is at least in part tough because of idiot laws and attitudes that no-one on this thread seems keen on.

kim147 · 29/05/2012 23:12

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VashtiBunyan · 29/05/2012 23:18

I don't know Kim. I don't know that Sheila Jeffreys would have discussed transgender at the conference. She may very well have been intending to talk about another of the issues that she writes about and campaigns about that were topics at the conference.

If she had been intending to talk about a particular area of transgender issues, it may have not been in a setting that was open to everyone attending. If she was talking about lesbians and transgender issues, that may have been in a closed discussion group for lesbians. We can only speculate on what might have happened.

solidgoldbrass · 29/05/2012 23:19

Ah well, given dear old Sheila's merry track record of having speakers who disagreed with her banned from all sorts of events, I can't say I'm too sorry she's got a dose of her own medicine. Even thought I do and did sympathise with the wish of the radfems to have their conference in peace.

NarkedPuffin · 29/05/2012 23:21

People who feel entitled to tell women what they can and cannot discuss? Sounds like men to me.

HotheadPaisan · 29/05/2012 23:27

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kim147 · 29/05/2012 23:31

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kim147 · 29/05/2012 23:46

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RulersMakeBadLovers · 29/05/2012 23:51

"but I do think that if someone has a view, they should be prepared to have it challenged rather than it being taken as gospel"

Quite.

Nyac · 30/05/2012 00:02

Well radical feminists have our views challenged all the fucking time Kim.

It's trans who everybody has rolled over for and their claims about themselves taken as gospel.

kim147 · 30/05/2012 00:08

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kim147 · 30/05/2012 00:09

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Prolesworth · 30/05/2012 00:15

But it's a fact that the trans activists have been heard: they successfully lobbied for the Gender Recognition Act, for example, which women's groups were not consulted about at all. It is trans activists who are trying to shut down any criticism of transgenderism. It is trans activists who are posting "die cis scum" on the internet and being generally aggressive and threatening. So who is insisting that their view be taken as gospel?

StarsAndBoulevards · 30/05/2012 00:19

But transgenderism isn't about attraction. It's about patriarchal stereotypes of gender being reinforced.

Homosexuality oppresses no one. Transgenderism does.

ComradeJing · 30/05/2012 01:56

Does the trans activist situation not remind posters of the many, many times men have come on here and said a version of:

Why are you discussing this?
I think this is a more interesting discussion.
You should be discussing this.

It's reeks of male privilege and demanding that the discussion focuses on what the male gaze decides is important.

It fucking fucks me off like nothing else on MN.

kim147 · 30/05/2012 06:53

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kim147 · 30/05/2012 06:57

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bejeezusWC · 30/05/2012 07:10

kim

What are your thoughts on some feminist issues?-any......pick a few....

kim147 · 30/05/2012 07:15

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bejeezusWC · 30/05/2012 07:20

I wasn't suggesting you shouldn't have views Confused. I was asking what yours are...

I'll rephrase, so you don't have to get into specifics....

What feminist issues. are important to you as a transgender person

kim147 · 30/05/2012 07:38

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kim147 · 30/05/2012 07:44

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