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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

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Radfem2012 banning trans people

1000 replies

allthegoodnamesweretaken · 26/05/2012 08:53

www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2012/may/25/radical-feminism-trans-radfem2012?fb=native&CMP=FBCNETTXT9038

Has anyone seen this? I don't really understand this bigotry against trans gendered people.
If we're trying to make the world a better and equal place through feminism, surely excluding people who also want to do this because of their genitals or the gender they assign themselves is going to make this impossible and is a bit hypocritical?

OP posts:
LRDtheFeministDragon · 26/05/2012 23:29

No, sorry, you've not! Not at all! All you've said is what it is not.

I feel hurt at the idea that in order to be 'not male' you tick 'female. Not because you want to be or think you are female ... but because female is simply 'not male'.

Well, how shit do you think that makes me feel?

I get you feel shit too. I do. But this sort of thing does make me feel extra shit, I have to say.

kim147 · 26/05/2012 23:39

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kim147 · 26/05/2012 23:42

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LRDtheFeministDragon · 26/05/2012 23:44

No-one on here thinks women are incapable of sexism, surely?

You do come across as nice, but you come across on here as if you assume we are all sexist and stupid. It is patronizing.

SardineQueen · 26/05/2012 23:45

Children are very flexible.
It is great that you have a good relationship with your son, and your ex by the sound of things. Of course it will be terribly terribly hard for her - she is doing the right thing.
I have had a few drinks Confused and this sort of thing - is not aimed at you. You presumably wouldn't try to attend a conference for women born women or whatever the phrase is. I like your posts and I feel for you. I would love to meet you at a MN thing or a feminist thing or a drink some where but not the radfem thingy. That's fair enough I'M sure Smile

kim147 · 26/05/2012 23:46

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kim147 · 26/05/2012 23:48

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LRDtheFeministDragon · 26/05/2012 23:50

kim - I don't identify as male either. I'm not wild about identifying as female.

I think so much of what you are saying makes perfect sense, but you are saying it as if you think transsexuals came up with these ideas and the rest of us are idiots not to notice them. But these ideas about gender identities being restrictive have been part of feminism for a long time.

I understand (I think?) that you're saying you identify as transsexual because nothing else fits? But you also tick the box as female because that is a way of defining yourself as 'not male' (there is a long and offensive history of this idea, of course, which is why lots of women find it insulting - women were once thought to be biologically deficient because they lacked the organs men had). I understand you're saying you're making an accommodation with the patriarchy here. We all do that. It is not fun and it does often get ideologically twisted, I know.

But is that all there is going on with 'transsexualism'? Other people seem to talk about it in very different terms. Are they disagreeing with you, or just putting it differently?

LRDtheFeministDragon · 26/05/2012 23:52

kim, I said you came across that way. You do, I'm afraid. You asked us to 'imagine' what it'd be like to get rid of gender stereotypes ... as if we do not talk about this all the time.

SardineQueen · 26/05/2012 23:54

God me too. Jobs hard to come by. Bugger.

Has your ex been unreasonable? Seems you are seeing your son. And your ex is obviously facilitating that. There was love there once, yes? I don't know. Things could be worse? Sorry just watched eurovision and englebert so life is a bit hmmmm at the mo Smile

kim147 · 26/05/2012 23:58

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LRDtheFeministDragon · 27/05/2012 00:08

Fair enough! Smile

I think it's this rhetoric you mention on other forums that bothers me. I didn't know it was no longer common since through trickle-down it's pretty common to people like me, who're hearing it at a remove.

Is it awfully rude to ask, yet again, what it was that made you feel that inner confidence, or that something very wrong'?

kim147 · 27/05/2012 00:09

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kim147 · 27/05/2012 00:15

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LRDtheFeministDragon · 27/05/2012 00:16

How is a comment asking if women feel suicidal about shaving their legs meant to make me 'understand' transsexualism? All it makes me feel is mocked. You won't explain anything, you won't deign to say why you feel so 'confined' .. you just take the piss out of how others might feel.

How can you expect me to understand how trans people feel if you just insist you don't like men (because you are sexist), and you belittle women?

LRDtheFeministDragon · 27/05/2012 00:19

Ok, I have no clue what 'the oestrogen' refers to other than hormone injections? Is that right? Is there some reason you won't say that, you talk about speech impediments?

Do you mean losing a speech impediment is an integral part of being transsexual? Or what?!

It is this sort of stuff that makes me feel you are just taking the piss.

kim147 · 27/05/2012 00:24

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kim147 · 27/05/2012 00:28

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LRDtheFeministDragon · 27/05/2012 00:38

I've read over this whole thread and I cannot see where I said any such thing about feeling I needed to shave my legs. It doesn't sound very like me! Are you sure you're not mistaken?

Yes, some girls and women do feel so upset by the stereotypes they're expected to conform to that they kill themselves. So, for that matter, do some boys and men. You can fuck right off with your assumption that this is confined to trans people.

I am sure I should have more compassion, but right now, no, sorry, I don't.

KRITIQ · 27/05/2012 00:49

I get what kim is saying. But LRD, I'm not understanding why you are finding it so personal and upsetting. Genuinely, I'm not getting that.

But it's way past bedtime. Maybe it's not the best time for anyone getting anything. :(

LRDtheFeministDragon · 27/05/2012 00:51

I'll re-read another time, kri, and maybe I will get it. I am mostly confused.

I'm sorry for finding it personal/upsetting.

ComradeJing · 27/05/2012 02:57

Morning all. What an interesting discussion, this was just the sort of thing that got me hooked on the mn fwr board before all the MRAs and derailers got involved.

kim147 · 27/05/2012 05:48

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kim147 · 27/05/2012 05:53

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Beachcomber · 27/05/2012 09:28

Kritiq, you misunderstand me when you say; In short, there are many, many women who could feel marginalised and excluded from a definition of woman or female that is predicated on reproductive function, whether or not that is the intention of using such a narrow definition.

I am not defining women according to their actual individual ability (or desire) to have children. A post menopausal woman is a woman, a childless lesbian is a woman, a woman who is infertile is a woman.

I do not use a narrow definition of what it is to be a woman - I use the biological definition that a woman is a person with XY chromosomes and who usually has female reproductive organs. Of course these organs may not all be there in intact working order. A woman who cannot or does not want to have children, still has XY chromosomes and is still a woman. She belongs to the biological group which bears children even if she does not actually bear children herself. This is basic biology.

The reason I talk about reproduction is not because it is how I define all women - it is because it is the primary reason for woman as a group being oppressed.

If you think there is another reason for the global sex based oppression of women then I would be interested to hear it. We suffer sex based oppression due to our sex - our biological sex. I would have thought this to be quite obvious.

Male violence is one of the tools of that oppression - but that does not mean that all male violence is directed towards fertile women in relation to their fertility. It means that male violence exists as a global reality in order to globally keep women in line because globally we are the group that bears children. A side effect of this is hyper masculinity and a general effect of male violence that may not always be directed at fertile adult females (humans being complex and socialization being a complex process).

The gender binary hierarchy exists in order to oppress and control women.

Transpeople also suffer due to the gender binary hierarchy, because they don't fit into it - but the gender binary does not exist with the specific purpose of oppressing trans people. It exists with the specific purpose of oppressing biological women. That it then, as accidental fall out or a side effect, also oppresses trans people, men, homosexuals, etc is very true - but it is not the reason for its existence.

I am not a feminist because I am afraid of losing anything Confused - I found your comment about that very odd, perhaps you misread the post of mine you were commenting on. I was referring to the very specific situation of how transpolitics appear to be affecting the very definition of woman. I am a feminist who does not accept that MTF trans people are biological women. I do not accept this because otherwise I lose my biological identity and therefore the ability to claim that I, and all women globally, are oppressed due to our biological identity. Like I said, game over for feminism.

That has nothing to do with a dislike or whatever of trans people. I wish them every happiness, peace and liberation from patriarchal discrimination. I agree with Nyac, if trans politics challenged the gender binary rather than reinforcing it, that would be a powerful thing. But I'm not about to tell trans people what to do - I don't have any idea what their lived experience is.

I think it is utterly Orwellian that the concrete physical biological definition of what a woman is is being twisted and redefined as something existential.

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