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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

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Radfem2012 banning trans people

1000 replies

allthegoodnamesweretaken · 26/05/2012 08:53

www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2012/may/25/radical-feminism-trans-radfem2012?fb=native&CMP=FBCNETTXT9038

Has anyone seen this? I don't really understand this bigotry against trans gendered people.
If we're trying to make the world a better and equal place through feminism, surely excluding people who also want to do this because of their genitals or the gender they assign themselves is going to make this impossible and is a bit hypocritical?

OP posts:
kim147 · 26/05/2012 22:44

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LRDtheFeministDragon · 26/05/2012 22:45

Yes! As usual SQ says it better than me in a tenth of the words!

Nyac · 26/05/2012 22:46

Kim what sex or gender do you call yourself when you're asked? Say on official forms. I don't think there's a trans box yet.

Nyac · 26/05/2012 22:48

The appropriate pronoun would be he. Males don't stop being males just because they don't like masculine stereotyping and have taken some artificial hormones.

LRDtheFeministDragon · 26/05/2012 22:48

You can usually check 'I don't want to say'. I do that.

SardineQueen · 26/05/2012 22:49

Ah well I have no problem with people presenting however they choose.

I feel sad for people who feel that their existence is not the one they should have.

I was mowing the lawn earlier, and I was thinking about this thread. Given the choice, I would be vulcan. And male. But I'm not. Sooo.... I don't "feel like a woman" by any of the thing judged. I am however obviously female. And human Grin So that's that , surely?

kim147 · 26/05/2012 22:51

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SardineQueen · 26/05/2012 22:53

If I had to wear a burqua and be accompanied to leave the house then fuck me yes I'd be suicidal.

LRDtheFeministDragon · 26/05/2012 22:54

Nice image SQ Grin

Given the choice I would still be female ... but I can't know if that is just because being female is all I know, or not. I do feel sad for anyone who hates their body enough to want to change it through surgery because that must be a very painful and lonely situation to be in. But ... well, when I was a teenager I really wanted bigger breasts. I could not conceive of the negative sides to that - all I saw was the positives. And I used to wear padded bras and push-up bras to make myself seem more like that. Now I have them naturally I just think 'ow!' and I like them fine, but I have to remind myself how much I assumed that a different body shape would make me a totally different person.

LRDtheFeministDragon · 26/05/2012 23:00

'Do we need a category such as transsexuals? I suppose it is an arbitrary definition for someone who is doing something about it because - and this is the key - they have to. If they don't, the overwhelming feelings of sheer unhappiness and depression overcome them and often lead to suicide. If you had to shave your legs, would that lead you to this overwhelming feeling of depression and suicide?

That's what being trans is about.'

So .. you mean every time someone is suicidal, we should create a category of reality for them? You surely don't mean that?

Obviously, as you will know, many people commit suicide because the patriarchy peddles restrictive gender-based ideas of behaviour. In fact - disgustingly - gay men have been and sometimes still are pushed to suicide because of this. The idea that we should accommodate the patriarchy and in this is disgusting to me.

What is it that transsexuals 'have' to do? I am willing to belive you that they 'have' to ... but I have asked so many times now what this thing is that they are or have to do, and you have no answers. Or I'm missing them. Of course, if we can save people from feeling suicidal, everyone wants that. Whether it's a radical feminist overcome by the pressure to conform to femininity that you refer to, or something else.

But what is it, in this case?

kim147 · 26/05/2012 23:02

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LRDtheFeministDragon · 26/05/2012 23:06

I am glad you feel happier. Smile

I'm sorry if I'm being dense ... I just don't follow enough.

Do you think you would not have any problems in a language that doesn't use gender pronouns? Or are these symbolic, or symptomatic of something else?

Nyac · 26/05/2012 23:08

I'd still love to hear what sex or gender you're using on your passport/driving license Kim. Which sex ward would you be in hospital?

SardineQueen · 26/05/2012 23:09

That is a powerful post Kim.

I have enjoyed your posts on this thread. You know, we are all individuals on here and that is the beauty of this topic on MN.

I also agree with much of what you have said so I guess that is why I have enojoyed your posts Smile

Nyac · 26/05/2012 23:12

x-post. Well there you go kim, men with penises can call themselves female these days. It's worrying. And there's nothing we women can do to stop them. In fact we may find ourselves on the wrong side of the law or Musmnet if we disagree too vocally.

The difference between rad fems and trans is that rad fems also aren't happy with the stereotyped sex roles we're forced into either but rather than thinking that makes us male, or that we have to distance ourselves from everything female to avoid femininity, we fight the oppression that creates the sex hierarchy in the first place.

That's what I'd prefer trans to do - to accept their sex but resist masculine stereotyping and male oppression of women, because that would be a powerful action.

SardineQueen · 26/05/2012 23:14

xposts

I think there is a thing here

I mean, how many FTM insist on male jails?
Is it wrong that hosp. wards are sex segregated?
Lots of stuff

You see, for me personally, I am comfortable with all sorts of people doing whatever they fancy. BUT it's the institutions that are the problem. Prisons, hosp wards, bedroom sharing for kids, all sorts of stuff. The rules are there for a reason, I know most trans people want a quiet life. But if you want to mix up wards for elderly people, for vulnerable teens, that sort of thing. Just no.

Get rid of the gender binary and then mix it up. Not before.

kim147 · 26/05/2012 23:15

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LRDtheFeministDragon · 26/05/2012 23:16

See, I get why individuals make accommodations with the patriarchy and I think we all do it. I just want to understand if we're all ultimately on the same page, or not.

If we are, great. I'm not about to judge someone for making an accommodation. But if we're not, I want to understand how and why so I can think about it.

Nyac · 26/05/2012 23:20

Hatred of masculinity doesn't make you female though. What you are ignoring is that that it is a cooptation of female reality to claim it because of a dislike of men, masculinty and stereotyped male behaviour.

By saying that if you reject that, you must be female, is reinforcing the stereotyping and sex hierarchy.

LRDtheFeministDragon · 26/05/2012 23:21

Btw, I cross posted, but I don't think many men are sexist prats.

kim, is my question in some way so rude you're just ignoring it and hoping it will go away?

I just cannot follow what you say when I do not know what 'transsexual' means to you. I really want to understand this and I get that this is a really difficult environment to post in, but honestly I am not badgering for the sake fo it, but only because I do not understand something really basic to this debate.

kim147 · 26/05/2012 23:22

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SardineQueen · 26/05/2012 23:22

Oh kim

Lots of men are really nice and decent. Many are shits but many are not... really I know some! Smile

It makes me feel so sad that you feel that you don't know where you fit in with changing rooms and stuff. That's not a feminism problem though, you sound like a lovely person Smile

KRITIQ · 26/05/2012 23:23

Beachcomber, I'm not getting the insistence that the oppression of women is solely based on their reproductive function and reproductive capacity. I accept that on Mumsnet, where the vast majority of members are mothers, that motherhood will form an intrinsic part of the identities of women here.

I fully accept that controlling reproductive function can be a means of controlling women (or at least fertile women, pregnant women and mothers,) is a tactic of patriarchal oppression.

However, there are women who have not and will never become pregnant or give birth. They may be infertile, perhaps not even have the organs so often cited as indicators of female sexual identity. They may have chosen not to reproduce for personal, economic, social or political reasons. They may have adopted, have step children or are involved in the lives of children without giving birth to their own. They may be celibate or in a same sex relationship. They may be ethically opposed to assisted conception.

In short, there are many, many women who could feel marginalised and excluded from a definition of woman or female that is predicated on reproductive function, whether or not that is the intention of using such a narrow definition.

If women's capacity to become pregnant and give birth is the sole reason for the oppression of women, then why would men rape children, or post-menopausal women, or women they know to be infertile, or trans people, or other men? Imho, in the case of sexual violence, this is perpetrated against trans people and men by ostensibly "straight" men because they see their victims as "not really men," or even as proxy women (e.g. in prison, in the military, in other male-dominated or men-only settings.) This violence is rooted in patriarchal oppression but nothing to do with the potential to impregnate those they rape.

Finally, in your Sat 26-May-12 22:15:20 post, you said,

I'm not a feminist because I'm afraid of losing something. I'm a feminist because I want to dismantle the social, economic and political structures that perpetuate misogyny, white supremacy, heterosexism and other forms of oppression in order to gain recognition of women (and other oppressed groups) as valued human beings within a new and equitable social order.

Nyac · 26/05/2012 23:26

Well I'm ready for that, kim. A lot more than I'm ready for him to call himself female and demand entry to women's spaces as is happening at radfem12 and in a whole lot of other feminist spaces.

Men need to widen their definition of what a man is, so it's not narrowed down to simply a man who behaves in a stereotyped masculine way.

And yes it's easier to get by in life to just try and fit in with whatever patriarchy has to offer us, but that's not what life is about is it?

kim147 · 26/05/2012 23:26

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