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Original poster

9 men found guilty of 21 counts of sexual abuse

71 replies

SnapesOnAPlane · 08/05/2012 18:36

over a 2 year period
www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/rochdale-grooming-trial-nine-men-824109
www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/crime/9239126/Rochdale-grooming-trial-gang-convicted-for-sex-trafficking.html
It's currently on Granada Reports 6 o'clock news, but I don't know whether it's on national/other local news channels.

One of the men found guilty today is already planning to appeal (according to GR6pm)

They have also said a school in Rochdale are now teaching young girls how to recognise signs of grooming, which I'm very glad about. Could this be implemented on a more national scale?

I have 2 teenage DDs who are prone to prowling the streets with their friends in that same area, so this has really struck home.

OP posts:
Original poster
SnapesOnAPlane · 08/05/2012 18:37

Oops sorry, those links didn't work.
mirror
telegraph

OP posts:
KRITIQ · 08/05/2012 23:42

Good to see the school in Rochdale trying to do something to raise awareness amongst girls and young women and I'd be interested to see how they plan to go about that. There are ways, and there are ways. Hint: preaching doesn't work!

It's depressing but predictable that the media are picking up on the ethnic/cultural angle of the perpetrators and the socio-economic class of the young women they abused and exploited. It's a handy way of condemning both and trying to show that this is something that's appalling, immoral but affects "other people" and not our good white middle class selves.

But that is actually rubbish. There is plenty of evidence emerging that girls and young women of all backgrounds, in all areas of the country are being "groomed" to normalise sexual violence and sexual exploitation. Parents and teachers are way, way behind the curve on this. Lots, lots, lots more needs to be done.

LemonTurd · 08/05/2012 23:55

This case is horrifying Sad and Angry

I watched a documentary about it. The presenter was interviewing men from the Pakistani community and one man commented something like, "These girls walk around at night in mini skirts, what do they expect?" Shock These girls are children. Whatever they are wearing (and judging girls/women on their clothing is a whole other thread) it's up to adult men to act responsibly. The fact that many of these girls were in care/vulnerable makes it even more loathsome.

It seems they see white girls as very different from their 'own' women and girls. Presumbly, these men have wives, daughters and sisters - how would they feel if it happened to them? I suppose that argument doesn't hold up though, the girls in their families are subservient and pure until marriage Hmm

Dangerous dichotomy: women as either whores to be used and abused, or virginal wife material.

duchesse · 09/05/2012 00:00

It's not sexual abuse though is it? It's rape if the girls are under 16, which many seem to have been. I don't understand why these men got off so relatively lightly.

Pan · 09/05/2012 00:01

LemonTurd - I'd be really careful to not wander into the nasty stero-typing that your post is bringing. You keep saying 'they' as if this group of men is representative of all muslim men.

Pan · 09/05/2012 00:03

erm, duchesse - they haven't bee nsentenced yet. What sentence did you think they had received to prompt your 'got off so lightly' comment?

duchesse · 09/05/2012 00:10

They've been tried and convicted for sexual abuse when in my view they should have been tried for a whole range of serious offences including rape. I realise that grooming of underage girls is a serious offence but the term "sexual abuse" encompasses such a vast range of behaviours that in my view it slightly trivialises what happened to these girls. I also note that the word "paedophilia" is not being used in this case. I'm just remembering the hoo-ha there was about the paedophile ring in Belgium a few years ago and comparing and contrasting the press reporting. I just feel that the press is going easier on these guys than they did on the Belgian ring or any other recent paedophile ring.

Pan · 09/05/2012 00:15

duchesse - there is no offence of 'sexual abuse'. IF you read the articlesand listen/watch other media you will be aware that some of them have been convicted of rape. The Belgium-based ring was extensive, and crossed borders - this is very 'local'. And paedophilia has been 'mentioned' in those articles.

So why do you think that "the press is going easier on these guys"?

duchesse · 09/05/2012 00:26

Because the press is saying "sexual abuse" when they ought to be saying grooming, trafficking and rape. Not that I think that florid is a good idea in any of these cases but the reporting seems to be a lot more low-key in this one.

duchesse · 09/05/2012 00:31

I thought the Assistant Constable of Manchester got the tone about the best- he managed to smooth over the racial tensions that have emerged whilst emphasizing the fact that this case is actually about adults abusing children. The BBC reporting does include a quote from a community leader saying that this type of behaviour is a problem in their community and needs to be addressed. Good for him to say it.

Pan · 09/05/2012 00:43

fyi - The Ramadhan Foundation is not a 'community-leading' organisation, in Heywood or anywhere else - Shafiq represents no-one but..The Ramadhan Foundation. By the same token it would be excellent if bishops of both CofE and other Christian faiths 'came out' and said "child grooming for sexual purposes is a real problem in our communities".

duchesse · 09/05/2012 00:45

okey-doke.

LemonTurd · 09/05/2012 09:24

Pan it was not my intention to stereotype all Muslim men. They refers to the men specifically involved in this case.

There's actually two documentaries I watched. Both presented by British Pakistani Muslims.

On Channel 4, Dispatches - Britain's Sex Gangs with Tazeen Ahmad and on BBC Three, Exposed: Groomed for Sex. That was presented by Adil Ray. He has regularly tweeted his thoughts on the case.

SardineQueen · 09/05/2012 09:46

I was watching on the news last night and I had a thought

The conversation seems to be - look it's asian men abusing white girls. The girls have "chaotic" home lives. Let's talk about the race element, or talk about why we shouldn't talk about the race element, or talk about chaotic home lives etc.

And the conversation is never the most OBVIOUS observation. Look a gang of blokes raping girls. This seems to happen a lot. Why is that and what can we do about it?

It's almost as if it's so obvious it's not worth saying. Or so obvious that people don't even notice that aspect of it. Why not? It's the most obvious bloody thing to talk about.

That annoyed me.

duchesse · 09/05/2012 09:51

Agreed, Sardine. And the media is not saying "rape" at all or very little, even though that is exactly what it is.

SardineQueen · 09/05/2012 09:58

They are talking about it soon on the wright stuff (which obviously, as a MNer, I'm not really watching Wink) and they are going to talk about whether there was a "racial motive".

Surely the reason these girls were victims was because they were the ones the men had access to? I don't think they would have given a monkeys about having girls of other skin tones in their abuse ring - they wanted to abuse girls and the ones that were around and vulnerable to grooming just happened to be white. There is almost certainly an element that girls of different backgrounds in general have different levels of freedom, but that's about it I imagine.

duchesse · 09/05/2012 10:06

I think there might be a "cultural" aspect to it in that paedophiles tend to seek out the company of other paedophiles in order to normalise their behaviour. As far I'm concerned it's a gang of paedophiles working together and they should rightly be shamed within their area.

SardineQueen · 09/05/2012 10:10

Do you think that there is a similar problem with describing them as a paedophile ring, like the asian gang moniker, is that it has an effect of "othering"? While in fact abuse of older female children is in fact pretty widespread across the whole country?

Don't know. I don't want to downplay it but the "it's some other sorts of people miles away from me" thing means people don't engage with it in the same way.

Callisto · 09/05/2012 10:19

There is a thread about this in 'News'.

I think that the racial element is very important. There is a disproportionate number of Pakistani men targeting young white girls. These men seem to see the girls as almost sub-human. However you lable it - sexual abuse/paedophilia/rape whatever (and it is all of those things) the fact remains that a particular ethnic group is targetting another particular ethnic group. I daresay that there would be a huge shitstorm if groups of young white men were deliberately targetting groups of Asian girls and nobody would be at all squeamish about whether it was racially motivated or not.

Callisto · 09/05/2012 10:20

That should read '...squeamish about discussing whether it was racially motivated or not'.

PlentyOfPubeGardens · 09/05/2012 10:21

Woman on Radio 4 this morning (from CEOP I think?) made the point that not only is this happening across all communities but that it's not just adults abusing children either. She said they are finding cases of 14 y/o boys abusing girls as young as 11. There is a pattern that is rarely pointed out by the media of course - the abusers are male and the victims are female.

SardineQueen · 09/05/2012 10:26

Callisto how do you know they are targeting white girls, rather than targeting any girls that are around and vulnerable and won't be missed if they are out really late / really drunk / drugged as young as 13?

What about the huge amounts of british men who go to child sex locations where the children are asian? I have never heard anyone saying that these men are racist.

SardineQueen · 09/05/2012 10:27

plentyofpubegardens I am glad that someone in the media has spotted that.

This case is a male on female sexual violence issue. Just a shame hardly anyone wants to talk about that.

Callisto · 09/05/2012 11:06

Well I find the men going to Asia for child sex equally repugnant. However, I'm not sure if there is a racist element to that (though there could well be) or whether it is purely the lure of cheap sex and/or the availability of very young children.

I think that what is happening in Rochdale etc is racially motivated because the girls are of a particular ethnicity and the language used to describe them is racist(white slag etc). While there is undoubtedly a widespread and general abuse of women by men, there is a racist element that should not be ignored.

SardineQueen · 09/05/2012 11:10

I suspect that the availability is the issue with these gangs operating in the UK though.