AIBU to treat male and female posters differently on feminism threads?

[EatsBrainsAndLeaves]

First of all, I want to make this clear that this only applies to feminims threads.

When a woman poster posts comments where it is clear that she doesn't understand feminism or her arguments are contradictory, I am more than happy to spend lots of time gently explaining my point of view. I know I still have a lot to learn about feminism and part of that is hearing what other women have to say. And I know that when I started posting comments about feminism on the internet I didn't really understand it, and many of my comments will have been contradictory.

Some lucky women grow up being taught about feminism - usually by their mothers. But for most of us, we learn about feminism as adults and as we grow up. And as feminists I do think we owe it to women to explain our point of view gently. I know not all women will agree with us, but most of us became feminists because of other women taking the time to do this.

I feel quite differently about men posting on feminist threads. When men post comments that show they don't really understand feminism or are contradictory, often they just derail threads. On a feminist thread I don't feel women should have to take the time to explain to men about feminism or argue with men. It should be a space for women to discuss feminism. I should clarify that I am not talking about men being abusive, just men not understanding feminism.

But then when I post something to a man like - you obviously don't understand feminism and are not contributing anything, I just feel guilty. Is this just my socialisation telling me I should be nice to men coming through, but my basic analysis is correct? Or is my analysis wrong? I am genuinely interested in the views of other feminists. If you are a man and you post I will ignore you. This is not a thread about men. It is a thread about what as feminists it is reasonable for us to do.

Sorry this is such a long post.

worriedbetty:

First beyond the basics, there is no such thing as contemporary feminism that all feminists agree on. I disagree on lots of things with certain strands of feminism.

Secondly, of course it is great if men are active is supporting feminism e.g. campaigning for changes in the law, challenging sexism, etc. That is great.

Thirdly, just because you don't acknowledge a power or a "boss" doesn't mean they don't exist and it doesn't affect us. We could for example as a light hearted example, ignore the power of MNHQ. But it won't stop them deleting a post if we break talk guidelines or banning us.

Fourthly, I am quite happy to post in response to men posting in the feminist forum, but I know I treat them differently to women. This thread was to try and figure out whether I was BU to do that.

I am a man, so Eats will ignore this. However, I wonder what others think about my dilemma. I am an engineer at work. I get asked technical questions by both male and female colleagues. Should I answer them differently, or treat them differently?

Okay I will answer. It is not a comparable situation as you know. It would be more comparable to say I get asked technical questions by other engineers and by non engineers. Do I treat them the same?

I am firmly of the opinion that a genuine enquiry from any poster should be accepted as such and therefore openly engaged with. If we repel men from any discussion of feminism we real are shooting ourselves firmly in the foot so to speak. There are men out there (rare I know right now) that are genuinly interested in understanding feminism and challenging the actions of other men.

We really do need to get past this issue as 50% roughly of the population are male. And of the other roughly 50% there are many that don't want to engage with feminism. And then you have the women who are damn right hostile to feminism and actively support the patriarchy. By not being willing to engage with men we are effectively reinforcing the perception that feminists are their enemy, when in fact taking down the whole system of patriarchy is to the benefit of everyone.

So on that basis it is my belief that you are being highly unreasonable.

I'm new to all this, so apologies if stupid question. Do all men have 'male privilege'? I ask because in certain strata of society, it seems that the old male privilege has disappeared and they are under an immense amount of pressure. This isn't to dismiss women in a similar situation, it is just that an automatic assumption that a male is privileged does not seem valid in all cases.

youngermother1 - Not a stupid question at all, please don't apologise. I think BertieBotts explains the idea of privilege better than I can at 22:33 on Sunday 6th May. But please post if you have any more questions, don't understand it or don't agree with it.

KoPo - I am torm between your viewpoint and the viewpoint expressed by Fairphyllis, which I think better explains what I was trying to say in my initial post. I have copied and pasted her post below to make it easier.

I actually don't have any problem engaging with more knowledgeable men on feminist forums. It is the basic questions over and over that are by far the most common things posted on feminist forums by posters who say they are men.

"I think it's perfectly reasonable to react differently to women and men who post without much knowledge of feminism - I think the phenomenon of feminist posters being expected to explain basic feminist positions over and over again to male posters (on discussions that are not for that purpose) is an extension of placing responsibility for managing men and their feelings on women's shoulders.

If men want to ask sincere basic questions about feminism, there are plenty of privilege and feminism 101s out there that they can look at first. It's unreasonable to expect feminists to drop whatever they're discussing and instead expend their time and energy educating you on something that you can probably find the answer to reasonably easily. I think men who ask those kinds of questions often think of themselves as the good guys, but don't realise that it is in itself a manifestation of privilege - 'I am a MAN who has a question, therefore the discussion must stop and all the women here should immediately gratify my wish to have this question answered.'

I'm not saying that men shouldn't post in feminist spaces - I think there is a place for both spaces that are women only and spaces that include men. I think men can enrich feminist discussion and learn from it. But if you refuse to recognise how asking these kinds of questions in this way is derailing, then you show that you are part of the bigger problem."

'I am a MAN who has a question, therefore the discussion must stop and all the women here should immediately gratify my wish to have this question answered.'

But isn't this how we all feel to a certain extent? Not 'I am a MAN ..." but "I am a PERSON who has a question,or a brilliant point to make,and I want you to engage with me now..." (or is that just me??)

And the argument that feminists shouldn't have to spend time educating someone on basics they could look up elsewhere applies to women as well.Some people would prefer to ask a person their questions rather than read about it - any of us could just be reading a book rather than talking here,but talking to actual imaginary constructs on the internet people is different,and I've found talking here has altered my views on some subjects in ways that reading hasn't.

It would be helpful if icons popped up next to each post to tell us if someone was a genuine poster,or just posting to be provocative...

Pride - Thats just you

Actually I do think there is a difference in people asking basic questions when they are directly affected by the issue. So for example, in the SN forum - I suspect posters would react very differently to someone posting saying I have a DC who has just been diagnosed with autism but I think some of it is just down to bad behaviour. To a poster who didn't have a child with autism posting the same question - say about their neighbour's child.

Are you suggesting I am trying to be provacative? I'm not. Just trying to figure this out in my own head. Although an icon like you suggest would be useful

YABU because treating someone differently because of their sex, race, colour or religion is wrong and is based on prejudice and leads to unfair discrimination

I post occassionally in feminism and most of you know I am a man. I post here because the issues discussed here matter a lot to our society and men should engage with them if they want a better society. ButterPecan - said it right I think. How can feminists expect to change anything if they will not engage with men who want to understand more of discuss the issues with an open mind?

I post judisciously, and avoid certain threads where my voice will not be welcome and I will not have anything to add but on the other hand as I said on a recent thread 'millions of little conversations' is how I feel we can tackle many of the issues routinely discussed on MN feminism threads.

I have posted probably twice under a different name because my posts contained quite sensitive information and did not reveal I was a man in my posts because it was not pertinent. However, it became obvious on both occcassions that I was assumed to be and being spoken to as a woman and it was very noticeablely a lot different ho wpeople responded to me. When I did eventually reveal I was a man on one of those threads I was immediately was berated for not revealing I was a man right at the beginning. It would not have made a difference to what I had said but it clearly mattered a LOT to some other posters and their tone changed immediatley. I strongly feel that a few posters in feminism are deeply prejudiced against men and use feminism threads as 'cover' to present their prejudice. It is wrong and most people on the feminist threads don't do it but a few posters routinely do it. I sometimes wish other feminist posters would call them out on it. They are as bad as MRA trolls.

I read a heck of a lot more than I post on feminism and have learned a lot and yes I do understand my privellege. I have a lot of privellege as a white middle class man. I don't think I need to have it shoved in my face every time I post or be treated differently.

Just ignore the fact that I am a man. Please feel free to just ignore me if you want. Just don't treat me differently.

All that arguing with Dad as an impressionable young thing has obviously messed with my brain!

No,I wasn't suggesting you were trying to be provocative at all,I was trying to acknowledge that some men in the feminism threads do post to be provocative and derail rather than in a spirit of genuine enquiry.(Have I just invalidated my own point here??)

Wouldn't it be interesting if it were technically possible just for one day to hide who the poster was, and so all posts would have to be responded to on their merit?

I didn't know you were a man, but them I am fairly new to MN. I don't think treating someone differently because of race, sex, etc is always unfair discrimination. At a basic level, with my deaf friend who lips read we all treat her differently by talking to her face, not interrupting each other, etc. We have to treat her differently for her to be able to participate.

I agree with positive discrminination as well such as all women shortlists for MP selection panels, as otherwise the in built biases that seem to operate would mean we would have very very few women.

As I have said I don't have any issue discussing feminism with men where they have some understanding. I haven't read any of the threads or posts you refer to though so can't comment whether you being berated was fair or unfair

Sorry,that was to EatsBrainsAndLeaves,not to you,MoreBeta - good post.
I have definately been on threads where it seemed a poster was getting criticised and having their motivation interpreted in a particular way just because they were male,and I don't like it.

EatsBrains, I think you have misrepresented my engineer analogy. You are happy to engage with women asking basic questions, but not men - have I got that right? You also respond to the same question differently, depending on whether a man or a woman posed it - have I also got that right?

If so, then I would be justified in answering James' question differently to Sally's if they come to me at work. It seems to be the sex of the questioner rather than the content of the question that you object to. Have I misunderstood?

No you haven't invalidated your own argument Pride. Haven't been on here that long, but yes on feminist blogs you do get men posting obviously with the aim of being provacative.

I actually engage with both men and women asking basic questions but respond to them differently. It is the sex that is the issue if we are discussing feminism, but not other issues.

My take on it is this. When we discuss anything with anybody in real life, context is important. I'm a scientist, so I'll discuss my work differently with colleagues at work then I will with one of my friends in a pub. To deny context would be unreasonable. Also, in real life, perhaps in a male dominated arena, such as if I worked on a building site, I might find it very difficult to discuss feminism, because the men there might talk over me, or there might be a male boss who does convey privilege and therefore I'd be less able to express my views

However, in MN, we're just words on a screen. Men have no privilege here. That means I'd take someone's gender into consideration (if I knew it), but I wouldn't worry too much about male privilege in this space as I think it doesn't exist

One of the things I like, or at least previously have liked about internet forums is that you often don't know anything about the other posters, including their sex, age, ethnicity or location. I have found that makes it easier to engage with ideas without preconceptions (even unintentional) of where they are coming from. Of course, people can choose to disclose things about themselves and that can shift the dynamics of the discussion sometimes.

Unfortunately, it seems most discussions on line these days happen within Facebook or Twitter, so aren't anonymous. In fact, you may know more about the person from what they display on their profile than you would about someone you meet and talk with in real life. I think this can be a barrier to the discussion of ideas, and leads to a strange dynamic - you know alot about someone without necessarily knowing them. It's easier to get personal from the safe distance of the web, and you actually have more material to use if you want to get personal.

Sorry if that seems a bit of a tangent, but one of the things I like about this forum is that it is still fairly anonymous. As far as I know, I've only ever met one or two forum members in real life. I don't click on profiles so know very little about others and with all the name changing that happens, I don't really keep up with who's who.

So, I don't immediately think about whether a poster is male or female, unless they make it obvious. Because of the membership of mumsnet, I tend to assume contributors are women.

I'm not sure that I consciously engage with male posters (where I'm aware they are male) differently than female posters. For either, I am happy to provide my ideas and insights, and when I have time, links to further information for those who are enquiring. But, I don't feel any specific responsibility to be more patient or cajoling with women than with men on an internet forum. Whether male or female, if you genuinely wish to be open minded, genuinely wish to engage in discussion about systemic oppression, then you'll be willing to put in the time to find out things and not expect to be spoonfed. Those who are, well I tend to question whether they are genuine in their interest or even if they are, whether they are at the point on their "journey" where spoon feeding would actually make any difference.

SeventhEverything, I was hoping that you could see it was a direct analogy to the OP's original predicament, and how it might play out in real life. If it wasn't, then allow me to explain - it was a direct analogy to the OP's original predicament, and how it might play out in real life.

The OP was gracious enough to see this and give me a polite reply. I feel you are making assumptions that are purely to suit your own agenda.

As Bennifer so eloquently put it, this is an anonymous internet forum. My type is no larger than yours. My voice is no different to yours. I have no privilege here. I find your interpretation disappointing.

I agree with Seventh. When you see a post on a feminist forum saying something like "I'm a man, so I will be ignored" it comes off as a bit of a pity party - like you're trying to provoke people into answering you, when really lots of posts get unanswered in these forums, that's just normal.

Sorry Sanjeev, I'm sure you didn't mean to come off that way, it's just I have seen it a lot on feminist forums.

Ditto to Kritiq about the liking of anonymity. It means you are judged by the content of the post which is good.

Its a diversion, but I like and dislike the anonymonity. Sometimes when an OP badly expresses something or seems to over react and people give her a hard time, I can't help but think there may be all sorts of stuff going on for her, that if she did this in rl you would be much more gentle and understanding. So I think there are pros and cons

Sanjeev - Just to say as well, we all have our own agenda here including you and me. Its a bit of a meaningless insult to level

I generally post 'I am a man' because it seems important to a lot of people here. It isn't a look at me statement, so apologies if it seems that way. It also seemed relevant to the OP, as she originally didn't want to respond to men, and said so explicitly. I did not want to appear as trying to fool her. I will leave it at that and go back to read-only mode, but thanks to those who responded politely.