AIBU to treat male and female posters differently on feminism threads?

[EatsBrainsAndLeaves]

First of all, I want to make this clear that this only applies to feminims threads.

When a woman poster posts comments where it is clear that she doesn't understand feminism or her arguments are contradictory, I am more than happy to spend lots of time gently explaining my point of view. I know I still have a lot to learn about feminism and part of that is hearing what other women have to say. And I know that when I started posting comments about feminism on the internet I didn't really understand it, and many of my comments will have been contradictory.

Some lucky women grow up being taught about feminism - usually by their mothers. But for most of us, we learn about feminism as adults and as we grow up. And as feminists I do think we owe it to women to explain our point of view gently. I know not all women will agree with us, but most of us became feminists because of other women taking the time to do this.

I feel quite differently about men posting on feminist threads. When men post comments that show they don't really understand feminism or are contradictory, often they just derail threads. On a feminist thread I don't feel women should have to take the time to explain to men about feminism or argue with men. It should be a space for women to discuss feminism. I should clarify that I am not talking about men being abusive, just men not understanding feminism.

But then when I post something to a man like - you obviously don't understand feminism and are not contributing anything, I just feel guilty. Is this just my socialisation telling me I should be nice to men coming through, but my basic analysis is correct? Or is my analysis wrong? I am genuinely interested in the views of other feminists. If you are a man and you post I will ignore you. This is not a thread about men. It is a thread about what as feminists it is reasonable for us to do.

Sorry this is such a long post.

I agree beachcomber with your analysis. So how do you think we should react?

I understand the desire to have a woman only discussion space - however on the internet, there is no way of excluding men. Therefore I would respond the same way. ie, if they are asking a genuine question or genuinely misunderstand, you help. If they are derailing or getting shirty, just ignore.

"I don't ignore them, but the value I put on their opinion is changed, and the ways I attempt to explain things to them (or don't bother) will vary too, depending if I think they are genuinely interested in understanding, or are just there to air their prejudices."

I think AMumInScotland makes a really good point, and the analogy with the home ed threads (which have endless derailing posts from people who think everyone should send their dc to school) is a good one.

I think some men react to feminist discussion as though it is a criticism of them personally - so if women are talking about rape as a feminist issue, this sort of man will get all huffy and tell us what a nice man he is who would never dream of harming a woman. For some reason this sort of man seems to think talking about men who do rape/beat/harass/abuse/mistreat women is some sort of personal affront to them. (He would like us to stop discussing our concerns and hand out cookies to all the Nice Men.)

It is a waste of time discussing issues with a man like this because his privilege gets in the way of his ability to hear women or genuinely care about our issues in any meaningful way.

I also have a lot of trouble discussing issues like prostitution, porn, lap dancing etc with men who defend these practices. No matter how well meaning they are, I am not comfortable with a person who argues for the sexual exploitation of a group of people they will never find themselves in.

I also do not like discussing issues of sexual violence with men where women draw on personal experience.

TBH I don't think I have ever come across a man who really 'gets' where feminism is coming from. I think it is very very difficult to completely lay aside one's privilege. I feel like this myself as a white person when race issues are being discussed - I can try to be aware and not racist but it is inevitable that as a white person, in a white supremacy, I carry some latent racism. Certainly I am not aware of many aspects of my white privilege and I should be pretty humble about that. I benefit from white privilege whether I want to or not - such is the nature of society. Therefore I benefit from racism, ergo my privilege is racism. I don't see how it is any different for men with regards to women's rights.

DirtyMartini posted this on another thread - it is very good on privilege.

I see a lot of men fail not only to understand what male privilege is, but especially to accept that they have it and reflect on how that may affect both how they discuss feminist issues and how feminists may wish to discuss with them. A lot fail to do this;

Accept Your Privilege
Once you have a basic grasp on the system of privilege, the next step is one simple self-realization: you are privileged. Chances are, your reading that has made you feel defensive. While it?s a perfectly natural, and common, reaction, don?t let it get in your way of actually thinking about what the statement means. What you need to realize is that we all have privilege to some degree: white privilege, male privilege, heterosexual privilege, etc. The hardest thing is to do is to get over your instinct to fight and say, ?But I?m not like that!? If you can do it, you?ve completed the first step towards being a pro-equality in reality rather than simply saying and believing that you are.

I tend to react with caution to discussing women's issues with a man - I have become kind of jaded of having what I thought was a good discussion only for a man to then show privilege/willy wave/mansplain/patronise/dominate the discussion/derail/try to set the agenda for the discussion/try to change the focus or framing of the discussion/be downright rude/feminist bash/get personal/generally act dudely.

You know you are onto plums with a man who denies that patriarchy exists.

Interesting - and YABU.

I think that I was treated as a derailer for a while: I don't know if it was thought I was male, or if there were other reasons. It's not a nice position to be in.

And it's not a reflection of a good place for debate when a single post (especially when making an enquiry, or putting an alternative view in a reasonable way) instantly attracts a slew of condemnatory posts.

All posts should surely be taken on their merit in terms of what they say, not on assumptions of sex or gender of poster. Otherwise it's just trading stereotypes (and veiled insults).

Of course posts should be taken on the merit of what they say - but context is important too, and a poster's identity is part of that context.

There is a difference between a straight person with heterosexual privilege posting "I think Gay Pride is a waste of time" and a homosexual person who doesn't carry that privilege posting the same thing.

Really?

As a bald statement, you really wouldn't know the reasoning. With an explanation sufficient for one to assess the post on its merit, assumptions on context become redundant.

Unless the aim is a 'closed' forum, where everyone knows who all other posters are, perhaps by proving their background before joining (so not MN, then), then working on the basis of assumed context, and non-shared knowledge about a poster (you might know something, but other readers won't) will lead to warped debate.

I think because it is so easy as a member of a privileged group to be unaware of your privilege, there does need to be a certain degree of being able to say "your privilege is showing" or "that post shows privilege in these ways:" and for that to be taken seriously. I think the whole point of the feminist board is for feminist related discussions, which means accepting that male privilege exists, whether you agree or disagree about the extent of that privilege. I think if you want to have a discussion about whether privilege exists at all it is better placed elsewhere.

If men want to post in order to learn more about feminism, then great - but it's an essential part imo to really try and be aware of privilege and how that makes life different for men and women in everyday situations. That includes posting on Internet message boards.

Beachcomber - Interesting comparison. Yes I wouldn't as a white women go on a forum for black women where they were talking about racism and say I don't think in the situation you are talking about, it is racism. Even if I thought it, it would just feel so presumptious and a bit oppressive to do this. and i guess this is how I feel about men posting in feminism threads. And I guess it relates to the point amuminscotland makes that there is a difference where a group of people are discussing something where they have personal experience of it and someone says their pov despite having no personal experience - it is different.

I can see a genuine question is different. But most of the time it is men arguing that a situation isn't an example of patriarchy or women are not discriminated against in certain situations or examples. And good point Bertie about privelege.

Just to be clear I am not saying we should ever assume a poster is a man. I was talking about where a poster says this so it is clear.

I do like it when you get a genuine mix of people posting on the feminism threads. I feel that MN is one of the few places I go where people genuinely discuss feminism (presumably there are other internet boards that do so but I don't have the time to find out since I am always on here). I remember a thread that included a comment about men flashing/masturbating in front of women. A man posted early in the discussion and said, essentially, 'well of course this is really rare, men just don't wank in public to intimidate women, do they?' which was of course followed by 34 posts saying 'it's happened to me'. I think that discussion could genuinely have raised his consciousness. And although raising male consciousness is not the only purpose of feminist discussions, it has to be one of them IMO.

Good point Joan.

i first posted on these threads some time ago, under a different name. it became clear that i was male and soon enough i was being bullied, mocked, insulted and my words were twisted to suit who poeple wanted to argue with.
i really felt that i wanted to discuss feminism and allthough my views would differ from some of the radical feminists they wouldnt think i was sexist, i certainly dont think i am. i ended up feeling that there was so much pent up vitriol that a non sexist guy cannot talk about theses issues with feminists, they just want a victim for their venom.
i hardly ever post here now.
a woman only forum is not only an impossibility on the web but an inherently sexist idea, if you reject sexime just like if you reject racsiem ( forgive my spelling i;m deslexic and couldnt be arsed looking for a dictionary) you should reject it in all it's forms , mens voices should be heard simply because equality means equal with men? who else?
i have a real problem with the 'privalidge' idea , some men, like the ones on boards of large companies probobly do feel privalidge , entitlement etc. there is also a huge underclass of unemployable uneducated men who have little chance of ever getting a girlfriend or a decent living, i donbt they feel terribly privalidged.

Yes because men's voices are so rarely heard??

i would also like to say that when women talk about rape and domestic violence i do feel slightly under attack, this is something i had concluded after alot of thought on the matter, part of me doesnt want to belive that such behavoir is so common and if it is how does that reflect on me, i start to feel guilty by default even though i have done no wrong. i understand totaly that men playing down the prevelence of rape and domestic violence in society will get up the noses of those fighting to get the message heard, but the reason for this isnt entitlement or privaledge , if's a reaction to feeling under attack.

But it is not a personal attack. And yes rape and sexual assault of women is very very common

some mens voices are heard , some are not
some womens voices are heard , some are not

i dont doubt that , well, not anymore

OP, I think you're being very honest. Of course it is technically wrong to treat male posters differently but to a level it is understandable: by virtue of the culture in which we live men cannot possibly know how our experiences have affected us, just as we cannot know theirs.

And many of us have met many men who engage in an attempt to mock feminism so we have become wary. If they seem genuine though I probably try even harder to get them on board, because I appreciate that they care when they do not have to.

I am interested in understanding more about why you try harder to get men on board? Because tbh I don't understand that. I do understand women trying to get women and men equally on board - because we want men to understand and act in a pro feminist way and we want women to challenge discrimination and not put up with being treated poorly because they think they should accept it.

I am not criticising by the way. Just don't really understand your point of view on this.

I think it's perfectly reasonable to react differently to women and men who post without much knowledge of feminism - I think the phenomenon of feminist posters being expected to explain basic feminist positions over and over again to male posters (on discussions that are not for that purpose) is an extension of placing responsibility for managing men and their feelings on women's shoulders.

If men want to ask sincere basic questions about feminism, there are plenty of privilege and feminism 101s out there that they can look at first. It's unreasonable to expect feminists to drop whatever they're discussing and instead expend their time and energy educating you on something that you can probably find the answer to reasonably easily. I think men who ask those kinds of questions often think of themselves as the good guys, but don't realise that it is in itself a manifestation of privilege - 'I am a MAN who has a question, therefore the discussion must stop and all the women here should immediately gratify my wish to have this question answered.'

I'm not saying that men shouldn't post in feminist spaces - I think there is a place for both spaces that are women only and spaces that include men. I think men can enrich feminist discussion and learn from it. But if you refuse to recognise how asking these kinds of questions in this way is derailing, then you show that you are part of the bigger problem.

Meow, you're misunderstanding the meaning of the term "privilege" in this context.

Basically, if you're interested in discussing feminist issues, that means you're acknowledging that feminist issues exist and are real, ie, that women are at a disadvantage compared with men, either always, or in certain situations depending on your view, but you are at least acknowledging that certain situations exist where women are disadvantaged compared to men. That is what feminism is about addressing, after all.

So if you turn this on it's head, it means that [in certain situations/in life in general] men have an advantage over women, just by being men. It does not mean that in all cases a man will win over a woman, or that a woman can never succeed if there is a man in the running, it just means that a man is more likely to do so, all other things being equal (and sometimes, even if all other factors are not equal) - this is known as male privilege.

Everyone has privilege of some form, whether male privilege, white privilege, straight privilege, class privilege, able-bodied privilege, privilege relating to where you live... it's inescapable, nobody chooses it, nobody is in control of it. You can't revoke your privilege or decide not to act on it, because it's not an act, it's just a state of being, an accident of birth.

If you are discussing feminism with women you need to be aware of the fact you have male privilege. Otherwise you're missing the point, absolutely and totally.

If you wish to argue about whether privilege exists I would suggest that feminism probably isn't the place for it.

Women can't be sexist btw, only prejudiced, important differentation imo

Men could always be referred to this space
finallyfeminism101.wordpress.com/

which answers a lot of feminist faq and stops discussions being derailed.
Sorry if my answer is somewhat abrupt but I have drunk a lot of wine and vodka this evening.

Eats, yes it is indeed odd behavior on my part. No doubt an internalized need to gain men's approval, and make them see that feminists are not man-haters! Pathetic I know, but hey... you can take the feminist out of patriarchy but you can't take the patriarchy out the feminist!

Messy - That makes sense. And we all do stuff that doesn't fit with our feminist principles. I know I certainly do. Thats why patriarchy is so effective, it gets inside us. Thanks for the honest reply.

This is intriguing. I think one major problem is the lack of coherency in what people consider feminism. I think that on one hand it cannot be right if you see feminism (as I do) as a conciousness raising activity that seeks to manage away automatic disadvantage for women v men, and greater all round human awareness, to then say 'well men can't get involved in fairness or understanding or education or changes in the law or power' or 'men can't truly 'own' feminism' or even 'men and women should have their opinions and discussions marginalised from one another' (which sounds so like a model of 'men change things women talk about changing things but don't want men to know what they think' that I feel it just cannot be right).

My main problem with feminism's operation is that by complaining about patriarcy it by definition defines and acknowledges patriarcy - complaining to the boss is by definition a subservient act that acknowledges 'boss' power iyswim.

On the other hand I see the point that understanding that someone's 'shorthand' on the topic might be useful and that might relevantly mean knowing someone's sex (and here is another problem, is that the same as their gender??).

Now I also know that many feminists would regard what I say above as showing a complete lack of understanding about feminism.

I also know that when I was in a sociology department, the line 'you clearly don't understand contemporary feminism' was used almost parrot fashion as a put down line from a particular feminist academic to any question, naive, challenging, interesting or otherwise from male sociology students. I felt very uncomfortable with this. More so when one male student asked to have a discussion on smth like 'given the imbalance in performance favouring girls at secondary level, and the increase in female teachers at this level, are women still appropriate teachers for male students?' I could see some great angles here for talks, but funding was blocked because 'the topic showed a complete misunderstanding of contemporary feminism' maybe so, but that wouldn't have excluded talks from people who DID understand contemporary feminism (and masculinities perhaps) being presented. Just one crap example, but can you see my point - its difficult to debate different routes and philosphies within feminism if you have to stick to an accepted definition iyswim.

But then perhaps my idea of the 'mission' of feminism is different/from a different paradigm/wrong/midguided etc and so this opinion should be disregarded.. I don't really know but I think MN is different from an academic forum, its about mistakes and loose cannon comments being examined and challenged. In which case why exclude men from scrutiny?